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Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

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wk057;1060281t said:
As a note to everyone else posting/reading, I stand by my OP and my comments here. In no way is this a concern that can get brushed under the rug by people who are saying it doesn't matter for one reason or another. I feel cheated by Tesla on this, plain and simple. The more time goes on, the more cheated I feel. The more cheated I feel, the more I'll have to push the issue. And from the looks of it, I'm not the only one.

I want to add that I feel cheated as well.
 
Here in Germany Lexus lost a court case and had to take back a € 135k LS 600h (basically unsellable around here) because the car was missing the promised ashtray. The court held that a retrofitted ashtray wasn't acceptable for such a car.
Tesla certainly can count itself lucky for having very patient and generous customers.
 
Tesla is a new car company.

Something that has not been done in this country in a very very long time. Now couple that with the fact that this "startup" is mass producing electric vehicles. Not a trivial matter.

Taking that all into account, my opinion is it's going to take years for this company to be able to match the perceived efficiencies of the standard automobile makers. They are going to over promise and under deliver. Part of the reason will be they are now a public company (stocks). Forced to balance Wall streets expectations with what they can actually do.

Eventually TM will get better at it, but they are going through a learning curve.

Someone pointed out that certain technologies have been and are being used by other companies. Implying that because others do it, there should be no real impediment to Tesla doing the same. I don't think that's a given. Tesla still has to recreate the processes and expertise to be able to do the same. Wonder how much a traditional automaker has for R&D (money, people, etc) as compared to Tesla?
I own several restaurants, with almost 40 years experience. Any idea how long it takes us to get a restaurant staffed, seasoned and to learn what our customers will respond to? One that truly starts to approach consistency and peak performance? Two years after opening. You have to train people, while learning what the market place expects/want from you as opposed to what your original concept was. Then, once you learn what will work in your market, you have to train and get some tenure on your staff. It is a daunting task. I cannot fathom what it would take to pull off a new auto company.

This isn't a free pass or excuse for every mistake they make. But to be oblivious to the facts doesn't change them or their impact. I cannot believe anyone who has been following Tesla for any length of time couldn't see this coming. Is it the way it should be or the way we want it? Of course not.

What am I trying to say is these types of issues are probably to be expected and should, hopefully lessen as the company matures. Until then, take any and all announcements with a grain of salt.

As for the OP and his issues. He's angry and disappointed. No sense in trying to argue with it if you don't agree. I suspect, if he feels as strongly as he has stated, he is going to end up in court. I do not think Tesla will meet his expectations in the time frame I think* he is implying. As to whether he will win or not, the courts will decide.

Of course the courts may not get to decide.....Isn't there an arbitration clause in our purchase agreements (cannot remember)? If so I think when you sign it you waive the right to jury trial and join or start class action suits. Please reread your contract as I certainly could be wrong. I sign so many damn contracts I can't remember.
 
Andyw says he expected full autopilot to be delivered with the car. I respect Andy, but that's pretty clearly a case of not paying close attention and researching a $100k+ purchase.

Actually what I said was that at the time I ordered, I thought the car would be delivered with lane-keeping. Shortly after ordering, but long before the car was delivered, I had learned that was not to be the case. And I fully acknowledged I was at fault, for missing whatever disclaimers there had been. This is what I had written about that:

I ordered my P85D, without ever having seen a Model S in person, thinking it was coming with the lane-keeping feature we're talking about here. You can all beat me up for not doing enough research, for missing the disclaimers, etc., etc., tell me it's my own fault, and that's fine. I was brand new to Tesla when I heard about the D announcement and watched the video of it. There was a lot of new information coming at me fast. I tried to take it all in. If a picture is worth a thousand words, what's a video worth? I watched several different videos of the test rides given at the launch event between the time I first became interested in the P85D and the time I ordered one a couple of weeks later. In those videos, the car was lane-keeping. If anyone in any of those videos said the car wouldn't be doing that at delivery, I missed it. (I'm pretty sure no one did.) I'm not suggesting that it is Tesla's fault I thought my P85D was coming with lane-keeping at the time I ordered it, and only discovered it wasn't as I read TMC and became more knowledgeable. What I am suggesting, though, is that I expect that there were a lot of other customers just like me. Tesla demo'd something that they apparently were not all that close to releasing. Disclaimers aside, and intentional or not, that was misleading.


I just watched the D announcement again, from start to finish: Tesla Unveils Dual Motor and Autopilot - YouTube

At no point during that announcement does Musk even hint at the fact that anything he is saying about any of the D models is not going to be available when the cars are available. Everything is present tense. The only thing he talks about as a potential future development is the automatic snake-like connection for the charger. Someone watching that video, as I did several times before ordering, would definitely be led to believe the car they were ordering was going to be delivered with the features Musk described.

That video showed what we now believe to be the System 7.0 display. Musk spoke of it as if it were part of the car--not something to be delivered later.

He also says very clearly that the sonar sensors work at all speeds--0 to 155 MPH, so that things like the blind spot detection will work at all speeds. (He says this at about 8:05 on the video.) Interestingly, this is what the manual says:

--
Blind Spot Warning is active when Model S is travelling between 20 mph (30 km/h) and approximately 85 mph (140 km/h)
--

Would someone like to tell me how I misinterpreted that?

I don't care that much about the fact that we don't have lane-keeping yet. I don't really care at all that blind spot detection doesn't work above 85 MPH. (Until I watched this video again just now, I hadn't even remembered that it was supposed to.) I care most deeply about my mismatched console. Others might care about the other things. My point is that we all may care about different things, but Tesla most certainly has given us things to be concerned about. They could be doing small things to ease some of the disappointment, yet they haven't been.

As I wrote to someone privately, right now the good-will Tesla is losing by alienating their best, most vocal supporters might not appear to be costing them much, since they are selling every car they can produce. But I don't think they are considering the long-term cost of that lost good-will.
 
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As an owner of a software company this thread is very interesting. What's clear to me is that Tesla has begun to cross the chasm from early adopters (who are willing to put up with ambiguity and glitches and such) to the masses who expect polished, predictable products. That's what most tech companies hope to accomplish but it comes with heightened expectations and demands. Seems like it's about time for Tesla to provide a release date they can hit.
 
Actually what I said was that at the time I ordered, I thought the car would be delivered with lane-keeping. Shortly after ordering, but long before the car was delivered, I had learned that was not to be the case. And I fully acknowledged I was at fault, for missing whatever disclaimers there had been. This is what I had written about that:




I just watched the D announcement again, from start to finish: Tesla Unveils Dual Motor and Autopilot - YouTube

At no point during that announcement does Musk even hint at the fact that anything he is saying about any of the D models is not going to be available when the cars are available. Everything is present tense. The only thing he talks about as a potential future development is the automatic snake-like connection for the charger. Someone watching that video, as I did several times before ordering, would definitely be led to believe the car they were ordering was going to be delivered with the features Musk described.

That video showed what we now believe to be the System 7.0 display. Musk spoke of it as if it were part of the car--not something to be delivered later.

He also says very clearly that the sonar sensors work at all speeds--0 to 155 MPH, so that things like the blind spot detection will work at all speeds. (He says this at about 8:05 on the video.) Interestingly, this is what the manual says:

--
Blind Spot Warning is active when Model S is travelling between 20 mph (30 km/h) and approximately 85 mph (140 km/h)
--

Would someone like to tell me how I misinterpreted that?

I don't care that much about the fact that we don't have lane-keeping yet. I don't really care at all that blind spot detection doesn't work above 85 MPH. (Until I watched this video again just now, I hadn't even remembered that it was supposed to.) I care most deeply about my mismatched console. Others might care about the other things. My point is that we all may care about different things, but Tesla most certainly has given us things to be concerned about. They could be doing small things to ease some of the disappointment, yet they haven't been.

As I wrote to someone privately, right now the good-will Tesla is losing by alienating their best, most vocal supporters might not appear to be costing them much, since they are selling every car they can produce. But I don't think they are considering the long-term cost of that lost good-will.

Regardless of what Elon said during the announcement, the web site says it is a future thing and will come in future software updates. That's pretty clear to me. You'd have to be ordering with your eyes closed not to see that.
 
Regardless of what Elon said during the announcement, the web site says it is a future thing and will come in future software updates. That's pretty clear to me. You'd have to be ordering with your eyes closed not to see that.

What it says now is not the issue. I'd like to see exactly how obviously it said whatever it said back when I ordered. I tried to use The Internet Archive Wayback Machine to check, and wasn't able to. (I ordered on the morning of October 24th, the day Tesla first offered 19 inch wheels and grey Next Gen seats on the P85D.) I'm willing to bet no matter how much you want to belittle me, saying things like I'd have to be ordering with my eyes closed to miss it, whatever disclaimer I missed was not nearly as obvious as it is now.

And please tell me where the website corrects Musk's statement about the sonar sensors working at all speeds?

I will reiterate that neither of these things are important to me.

I'm defending my position because I don't want to see things start down the path where people believe it's OK for Musk to get up in front of a room announcing a new product, say anything he wants about it, and have it not be true. Because when you say things like "Regardless of what Elon said during the announcement..." in my opinion you're beginning to get awfully close to that.
 
My take on this situation (as a Tesla follower for 12 months and a Tesla owner for 6) ...

1). Tesla has brought the Vaporware business model to the Auto Industry (sadly).
2). They have done so because its working for them (I too "naively" purchased a P85D in 2014 with an expectation of MUCH more functionality MUCH sooner). Fact is this business model is selling cars, and helping them hit delivery targets in the short term. Promotion-Aggressive Marketing-Deception-Fraud ... its all a spectrum.
3). One day (soon ?) this practice of making over-sized but vague promises may come to harm them, either in the court of public opinion, or the court of law.
4). No one here (who has access to good information) should:
a). Be *shocked* when Tesla again (and again) misses deadlines, both specific and vague. The track record is clear.
b). Be surprised that Tesla acts with (practical) indifference to its (most loyal) advocates - its early customers. They are busy finding new people to sell their great vehicles to. They already have our money.
c). Order a car without a test drive, and expect anything more than is on the vehicle you drove (or you can confirm has already been delivered).
d). Imagine that their situation is unique or special (Tesla has both disappointed and delighted all of us in the past)​
5). For every disappointed customer who has reached their own "arbitrary limits of patience" there will be Tesla defenders who want to tell us how heroic the company is and how we should all give them more money, more time and even more benefit of doubt.
6). Its just a car (a damn good car!) and just a company (a damn bold one). Having out sized expectations of either can easily lead to disappointment.

Here's the on-topic content:
I too am disappointed about the delayed next gen seats and as yet undelivered Autopilot functions in my P85D. The D event video certainly didn't leave the impression that these features were MANY (not a few) months in the future. In total, I would describe the Tesla marketing of Autopilot as deceptive. That said, I love the car. Its been great. If I had it to do over, I might have waited. But nobody held a gun to my head and made me press the order button, and nobody forced me to take delivery ... so I'm trying to not let my disappointment devolve into complaining.

[edit]: PS wk057 is a great asset to this forum and has made HUGE contributions. I appreciate fully his frustrations, perspective, and relative balance in this discussion. Please be careful not to attack or challenge him personally ... or we might lose his valuable participation in the forum. By all means disagree of you want, just try not to be disagreeable when you do so.​
 
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After watching this video I feel much better about autopilot eventually working. At the end he points out that Tesla is the only car manufacturer that upgrades software over the air and points out the incremental updates Tesla has done so far.

 
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[edit]: PS wk057 is a great asset to this forum and has made HUGE contributions. I appreciate fully his frustrations, perspective, and relative balance in this discussion. Please be careful not to attack or challenge him personally ... or we might lose his valuable participation in the forum. By all means disagree of you want, just try not to be disagreeable when you do so.​

He's a big boy and should be able to handle himself. When you bring up 'legal recourse', even if you're trying to back-pedal by saying you weren't actually threatening that, it's going to get some strong opinions. And I don't see anything that even comes close to some of the statements he's made in the past towards others, when he disagreed with what they had to say.
 
Fact is this business model is selling cars, and helping them hit delivery targets in the short term. Promotion-Aggressive Marketing-Deception-Fraud ... its all a spectrum.

Really? So we're now into the realm of calling Tesla's actions "fraud"?

While I appreciate and understand people's frustration regarding this issue, calling Musk's or Tesla's actions "fraud" is, in my opinion, way over the line. I just wish there was more accountability on the internet for throwing around these damaging terms, especially when it is done in such a cavalier way as this. I know of a few cases when people were pursued legally for making serious unfounded allegations. I just wish it would happen more often.
 
"Several months" is quite vague and delays can happen. I'm not sure what a lawsuit could pin on them. If they promised on paper a deliverable release date, then perhaps they can be sued for violating the contract, but that is not the case.

At most you can maybe sue for false advertisement, but I don't believe there are many successful examples for software delays (otherwise a lot of video game companies would be out of business, as release delays of pre-ordered games are quite common). If they knowingly made a promise that they were certain they can't make, rather than hitting some unforeseen delays, then perhaps there is a case, but I doubt that would be true in this case.
 
Those of us who reserved Roadsters early on nearly got no car at all, with Tesla at death's door in 2008. Those of us who reserved Model S early on, nearly got no car at all due to Tesla almost running out of money during early production (Oct 2012).

Anyone who bought in mid-2013 or later and is impatient and peevish about a few months delay in nonessential features, I have absolutely no sympathy for.

Tesla is trying to change the world. That is a wee bit tough. Are you trying to change the world? Why not?
 
I went back and dug up more concrete references to timeline:

At the end of June 2014, Elon said autopilot will be available in 12 months (Calculated to be July 2015)
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32866-Autopilot-highway-driving-within-12-months

10/2014 press release mentions "several months"
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

3/19/2015 say 3-4 months (Calculated to be 6/19-7/19/2015)
http://www.slashgear.com/tesla-model-s-autopilot-update-due-in-3-4-months-19374458/

6/10/2015 Elon said he is testing the software everyday, and there are 2-3 revisions every week. He said to expect public beta release around the end of June.
http://time.com/3916045/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot/

Given the information so far, it seems Tesla has been largely consistent with their timeline and is making a good faith effort to hit it.
 
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I went back and digged up more concrete references to timeline:

At the end of June 2014, Elon said autopilot will be available in 12 months (Calculated to be July 2015)
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32866-Autopilot-highway-driving-within-12-months

10/2014 press release mentions "several months"
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

3/19/2015 say 3-4 months (Calculated to be 6/19-7/19/2015)
http://www.slashgear.com/tesla-model-s-autopilot-update-due-in-3-4-months-19374458/

6/10/2015 Elon says he is testing the software everyday, and there are 2-3 revisions every week. He says to expect public beta release around the end of June.
http://time.com/3916045/elon-musk-tesla-autopilot/

Given the information so far, it seems Tesla has been largely consistent with their timeline and is making a good faith effort to hit it.

Oh there you go again, bringing facts into the discussion. :)
 
Fact is this business model is selling cars, and helping them hit delivery targets in the short term. Promotion-Aggressive Marketing-Deception-Fraud ... its all a spectrum.ation in the forum.

Really? So we're now into the realm of calling Tesla's actions "fraud"?

While I appreciate and understand people's frustration regarding this issue, calling Musk's or Tesla's actions "fraud" is, in my opinion, way over the line. I just wish there was more accountability on the internet for throwing around these damaging terms, especially when it is done in such a cavalier way as this. I know of a few cases when people were pursued legally for making serious unfounded allegations. I just wish it would happen more often.

I could be mistaken--I have been before--but I didn't read yak-55's comments as implying Tesla had moved onto the fraud end of the spectrum. I thought he was just pointing out that there is a wide range.

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Tesla is trying to change the world. That is a wee bit tough. Are you trying to change the world?

I'm not trying to change the world. But I would like to see Tesla change into a company that honors its promises to its customers.
 
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