Autopilot nearly allows side collision on highway

[Az_Rael]

I've said it before; Tesla should require drivers to review an online Autopilot safety course (through the app or center console) before AP can be activated (per named profile) so drivers are fully aware of CURRENT limitations.

They should also require a training before any new features are enabled or the code behavior is significantly changed. So, in the future NoA city driving, etc.

Shoot, I would just settle for detailed release notes honestly. They have significantly changed the behavior of the TACC set speed upon AP wheel disengagement twice and not once was it mentioned in any of the notes. I hate getting surprised by new stuff like that which we get to find on our own as it isn't documented anywhere.

 

[Ludalicious]

Good save he came in fast... Maybe the autopilot didnt have time to react.... Or maybe it's still due to being in Beta stage. One would hope that's the case.

 

[TMThree]

Because the programming is all written by the same company for one product

They're two distinct products that do different things.

One is cruise control and lane keep, the other monitors the world around you, watching for traffic signals, stop signs, and handles city traffic. The code is not intermingled

 

[Oldschool496]

The point is, without any automation engaged, my car is still constantly assessing the environment and able to provide a warning of a potential crash

Yes to this point, in fact I have found on my car, in my case on surface streets the warnings are quite good, especially with right hand turners in front of me. I have gotten pretty close on purpose and still wondering if the brakes and steering intervention will ever come into play. Perhaps I think I'm to close to warn only and not close enough to warrant action. I hope it never comes.

The exclusive camera system being the only way E.M. and Tesla engineers are moving forward with FSD, I'm not on board with that yet until I know more. Only because when you read the manual(with one forward facing camera or maybe multiple it warns you repeatedly about rain, fog, dirty surfaces in front of lenses, sun light, and more being something that obscures the systems judgement.


SO whats the backup systems to these cameras proposed only for FSD if the steering wheel is missing on a foggy morning in the central valley of CA or any other state?

Driving on a busy(tractors going 10mph and cars going 60+) country road where you can't see the line in the center line of the road looking out and down your left(was drivers) side window?

What is the car going to do? Stop. There are a lot of questions here in full obscurity situations only with cameras only.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Much to my surprise, it did absolutely nothing, even as the car entered my lane, at which point, I immediately swerved to avoid what would have otherwise been a side to side collision at highway speeds, and laid on the horn for a few solid seconds after making sure I had control of the vehicle. The Honda slowly retreated back to it's lane, and then after a few seconds, completed it's original intended lane change in front of me with plenty of space this time.

Fast thinking and good observation !
Hmmm, I guess we can't call that feature Auto Collision Avoidance It's a big enough stretch to call it full self driving

 

[Rownolds]

"You really, really do have to be prepared to take over in an instant at any time."
Yup. I LOVE autopilot and I use it ALL the time, even on city streets because it's a better driver than I am (my mind tends to wander. You who are reading this are probably a better driver than I am, so of course you may view autopilot differently). But I know it's limitations and I watch very carefully at all times (when I can remember to pay attention). And I will click it off when I think there's an upcoming situation that it will have trouble with. I am barely able to bring myself to leave it on inside construction zones, and I pay uberclose attention because I think there's a 30% chance that I'll have to grab the wheel. #themoreyouknow

 

[carloscurti]

On the drive home after work, I had AP engaged in my Model 3 (EAP on HW2.5). After confirming a lane change to the right to get around a slower semi, I passed it, while the other traffic passing on the semi's left maintained about the same relative position to me.

The tan Honda which passed me in the first 10 seconds of the clip is mostly out of view, off my front left corner, and begins changing lanes to the right, from two lanes over, to one lane over, but then apparently doesn't see me, and begins entering my lane. When the Honda first began changing lanes, I was poised to take over, but curious to see how conservative the autopilot would act, and if it would give any breathing room to the car veering towards me.

Much to my surprise, it did absolutely nothing, even as the car entered my lane, at which point, I immediately swerved to avoid what would have otherwise been a side to side collision at highway speeds, and laid on the horn for a few solid seconds after making sure I had control of the vehicle. The Honda slowly retreated back to it's lane, and then after a few seconds, completed it's original intended lane change in front of me with plenty of space this time.

I took away a couple things from this:

• 1.) Autopilot is far from perfect. If this is any indication of Tesla's Full Self Driving, they have a lot of work to do. You really, really do have to be prepared to take over in an instant at any time.
• 2.) The front facing side cameras should be viewable in dashcam downloads. The Honda spends way too much time out of view of the 3 cameras I can access, even though it was plainly visible to me. As far as sentry mode goes, if an entire car can hide in the 3-cam blind spot, a person easily can too. If the other cameras are accessible or viewable, it's not apparent where that footage can be obtained.

Looks like you were passing the truck on the “slower” lane. The Honda was moving back towards it to exit presumably. Not to forgive the Tesla system for “not seeing it”, but when the Honda was passing the truck and moving to its intended lane, you happened to be in their blind spot. Glad that you reacted and turned to be uneventful. But we must recognize where the problem originated, by passing on the right. The Tesla system may eventually learn how to be vigilant in those situations, but it has to start with the driver.

 

[derotam]

I had the settings to the max when I first started driving, and then brought it down one level after I got annoyed by the excessive early warnings. In any case, you're fixating on the wrong part. Disregard "frequently". The point is, without any automation engaged, my car is still constantly assessing the environment and able to provide a warning of a potential crash. In the situation I experienced on the highway though, it failed to either warn me or take any action on it's own, when AP was engaged.

And in your specific situation on the highway I maintain that the other car barely had even touched your lane line before you took over and swerved out of the way. I don't know if the Tesla can get a lateral speed using the ultrasonics...If not, then the system didn't have any speed information to make a determination on a possible collision and would have to wait till the threat vehicle violated the visual sensor logic. If the other car hadn't even crossed into your lane yet, there wasn't a threat to the system.

 

[flygirl]

I was on a two lane, clearly marked, “country” road with extremely narrow shoulders, and beyond that a ditch. There are many times I see distracted drivers crossing into oncoming traffic. It happened again to me the other day, with a car maybe 6-12 inches in my lane. I took control over autopilot and could get to the edge of the road to avoid a collision, but wondered what AP would have done.

 

[Knightshade]

I was on a two lane, clearly marked, “country” road with extremely narrow shoulders, and beyond that a ditch. There are many times I see distracted drivers crossing into oncoming traffic. It happened again to me the other day, with a car maybe 6-12 inches in my lane. I took control over autopilot and could get to the edge of the road to avoid a collision, but wondered what AP would have done.

Since AP is explicitly not intended for use with oncoming traffic it probably wouldn't have done much of anything.

 

[quintman]

Because the programming is all written by the same company for one product, and as we're learning from Boeing, safety is not supposed to be an add-on option. My car alerts me frequently when I'm driving with no automation when it thinks I'm not slowing down fast enough to avoid the car in front of me (my foot is already on the brake in many instances). This would suggest it's projecting several seconds forward what may happen, and is at least alerting to a potential crash. There was absolutely nothing in this instance, no alert, no intervention, nothing. I'm not expecting it to navigate streets, I'm expecting it to keep me safe in what's supposed to be the easiest, most predictable driving scenario.



Yes, and too many people think that's a suggestion, and put too much trust in it. This is a reality check that should hopefully warn others to not let go as much as they may be doing. I hope that my reactive experience helps others be more proactive. Besides all of that, what's the point if I can't relax a bit while AP is engaged? What part of the driving process am I delegating if I'm still fully engaged, and now not only making driving decisions, but also evaluating whether or not AP is making the correct decisions on top of that?

Hello there.. Myself being a recent Model S purchaser, I have stayed away from the AP for the following reasons:.
1. The system is a single unit system with single points of failure. On the way down to Jersey in my 2019 model S, the warning message "Reduction in Blindspot Capability Encountered" appeared on the dash. Sure enough I could see that the rear facing cameras were not functioning. I could see cars from my front window forward, but none behind me.

Now if you take this same autopilot concept and scenario, and apply it to an airplane, and on our landing approach, our altimeter (altitude sensor) goes out, we are now in serious trouble. However, on a plane there are dual systems throughout. If any one component fails, there is an entire other system that can pick up and take over upon notification of a component or system failure.

In the case of AP and FSD, FSD has to have a dual (non-single point of failure hardware system) in place. Im quite sure that this is indeed going to be a requirement as the national transportation board gets involved in such legislation. From my comfort level, and a requirement before I would rely on FSB with my family on board, I suspect a dual hardware upgrade is likely to be in the works as FSD moves closer to fruition. As for AP, I feel the same applies. As you change lanes, you are relying on that camera 1. functioning, 2, the software interacting properly , 3. the computer running the software to function properly, and 4. the program making the correct decision as to what to do. If there is a failure in any one of those 4 components (and I didn't even mention the auto steering etc) you have a high likelihood of a collision/mishap.

This is just my opinion, based my experience having seen two cameras go out of service and not return to service until the car had been move to the Car off and back to the Car On.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Now if you take this same autopilot concept and scenario, and apply it to an airplane, and on our landing approach, our altimeter (altitude sensor) goes out, we are now in serious trouble. However, on a plane there are dual systems throughout. If any one component fails, there is an entire other system that can pick up and take over upon notification of a component or system failure.

Except in cars there are not redundant systems (except for the brake system, sort of) because they are not necessary for the obvious reason that you drive a car on the ground instead of in the air. I don't think redundancy will be required to achieve safety much greater than a human. It seems like something that isn't worth worrying too much about until you can actually make a FSD system better than a human.

 

[Rottenapplr]

You would think the car would brake at least to prevent this from happening. I see the promise of self driving. I just don’t know if we are there yet or will be there for another few years.