TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

AutoPilot - note to drivers and Consumer Reports

Discussion in 'Model X' started by xkwizit, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,038
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    I think I may have seen a video, don't remember where, that intimated there will come a time when effectively, you never do actually 'drive manually' anymore. Each and every input you give to the car will be checked, double checked, quadruple checked and more by the computer system to determine whether or not it is a safe and proper maneuver, then the car will allow itself to take you to where it believes you want to go in the safest possible manner. It will be completely seamless. Everyone will think they are such a GREAT driver. And, every time they try to drive something else (even a car they used to 'love' for it's 'communication with the road'), it will feel like ancient, sluggish, unresponsive crap in a soggy bag by comparison. Then, when they get back into their electric car it will remind them how much they love to 'drive' it once more. Our electronic overlords will keep us all safe. Honest. You are welcome. :D
     
    • Funny x 1
  2. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    3,070
    Location:
    NV
    There have been posts here where owners have reported that they pulled off maneuvers in their Teslas that they didn't think was possible. To the posters' credit, they swore that the car did it (not that they were such amazing drivers). And in these cases, that I recall, none were using autopilot. You may be a lot closer to the truth than we know.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. JGInnovation

    JGInnovation Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario
    Malcolm Gladwell's podcast covers Toyota's unintended acceleration controversy. If you haven't listened to it, then you can find it here. It talks about Consumer Reports recommendations and how fundamentally dangerous they are. You just can't trust CR when it relates to safety whether its AutoPilot or unintended acceleration. Maybe they are desperate? Incompetent? I don't know.
     
    • Like x 3
  4. msnow

    msnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,971
    Location:
    SoCal
    I'm fairly certain that other than TACC, AutoPilot software didn't come out until a year later (October 2015) so they had nothing to demonstrate.

    I am crediting media in general (not just CR) as there were dozens upon dozens of large credible news outlets writing stories critical of AP at the time but more importantly I'm crediting the involvement of the NHTSA and Tesla for working through these issues. If you will recall, Tesla's response at the time was there's nothing wrong with AP (other than Elon's tweet about the false positives of the front camera), it's the drivers responsibility which they agree to every time they turn it on, etc, etc. So media and regulators helped here even if it was just to accelerate change. Win/win.

    No one is disputing the name change argument. It's a red herring.
     
  5. GoCanes

    GoCanes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Miami, Florida
    I just listened to the Gladwell podcast - great insight from him, as always! He accuses CR of malpractice in the unintended acceleration matter. But he does provide cautionary advice about drivers' responsibility for controlling their cars. That advice applies even today in the autopilot era!
     
  6. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,038
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    Wait... "...nothing to demonstrate..." Really?


    I guess I just imagined the second half of that video, then.
     
    • Funny x 1
  7. msnow

    msnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,971
    Location:
    SoCal
    Right. So first of all that was a terrible video. If you were trying to show us something, it was blocked by people's heads, shoulders and darkness so whatever your point was is lost in that. So big fail on that illustration although unless you shot it it's not your fault. In the audio everyone's yelling about how awesome it is which seems to be contrary to what you said. In any case the "beta" software came out a year later so I wouldn't expect an alpha proof of concept to blow me away.
     
  8. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,853
    CR now states:

    Safety Agency Closes Tesla Investigation Without Ordering Recall

    "The agency also analyzed the crash rates in model year 2014-2016 Tesla Model S and 2016 Model X vehicles and found that the crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer was installed.

    "But Teslas that have Autosteer also have automatic emergency braking (automatic emergency braking was added in a few months before Autosteer in 2015), which the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety says reduces rear-end crashes by 40 percent. Consumer Reports has follow-up questions into NHTSA about how much of the Tesla crash decline might be attributable to automatic emergency braking."

    "The Tesla crash caused safety advocates, including Consumer Reports, to question whether the name Autopilot, as well as the marketing hype of its roll-out, promoted a dangerously premature assumption that the Model S was capable of truly driving on its own. Tesla’s own press release for the system announced “Your Autopilot has arrived” and promised to relieve drivers “of the most tedious and potentially dangerous aspects of road travel.” The release also stated that the driver “is still responsible for, and ultimately in control of, the car.”

    "Consumer Reports believes that these two messages—your vehicle can drive itself, but you may need to take over the controls at a moment’s notice—create potential for driver confusion. It also increases the possibility that drivers using Autopilot may not be engaged enough to to react quickly to emergency situations.

    "In general, though Consumer Reports supports technology that advances the consumer interest, the independent, nonprofit organization believes in a careful balance of innovation and safety.

    "NHTSA’s Thomas said the agency was interested in nurturing new safety technologies, and it wanted to encourage innovation even as different automakers experiment with different methods. Eventually, the industry will settle on best practices. In the meantime, the agency will continue to investigate and take action as necessary, he said."​

    The first point is an interesting one. Close readers of the NHTSA report will note that it compared AP1 hardware cars BEFORE Autosteer was enabled with AP1 hardware cars AFTER autosteer was enabled. They report a 40% reduction in accidents in the latter. CR appears to be uncomfortable with this fact -- revealing that their recommendation to disable Autopilot, if followed, would have INCREASED accidents.

    So CR posits that the decrease was primarily explained by AEB. I think the timing is off and doesn't support their point. If AEB didn't function until Autosteer was enabled in October 2015, and for cars purchased after that AEB didn't function until the person paid for an enabled autosteer, CR's point would be a good one. But that is not the correct timing.

    But I'm pretty sure that the facts are that AEB was functional in AP1 cars well before autosteer was enabled (at least back to March 2015?). And for those cars purchased without Autosteer enabled, AEB was already functional whether they paid for Autopilot/Autosteer or not, and the AEB functionality didn't change when they later enabled AutoPilot.

    It looks like CR is just dead wrong and this is just a pathetic attempt to try to explain away the difficult fact that the Autopilot that they were so afraid of and alarmist about, reduced accidents and probably saved lives.
     
    • Love x 5
    • Like x 2
  9. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,038
    Location:
    Los Angeles CA
    "The agency also analyzed the crash rates in model year 2014-2016 Tesla Model S and 2016 Model X vehicles and found that the crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer was installed."

    So... that would be a GOOD thing, right?

    "But Teslas that have Autosteer also have automatic emergency braking (automatic emergency braking was added in a few months before Autosteer in 2015), which the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety says reduces rear-end crashes by 40 percent. Consumer Reports has follow-up questions into NHTSA about how much of the Tesla crash decline might be attributable to automatic emergency braking."

    Yes, and both Autosteer and automatic emergency braking are inherent aspects of Autopilot, as noted in the initial presentation on October 9, 2014 by Tesla, right?

    "The Tesla crash caused safety advocates, including Consumer Reports, to question whether the name Autopilot, as well as the marketing hype of its roll-out, promoted a dangerously premature assumption that the Model S was capable of truly driving on its own. Tesla's own press release for the system announced "Your Autopilot has arrived" and promised to relieve drivers "of the most tedious and potentially dangerous aspects of road travel." The release also stated that the driver "is still responsible for, and ultimately in control of, the car.""

    So, your issue is more one of an English journalism lesson than one of technical expertise then, right?

    "Consumer Reports believes that these two messages—your vehicle can drive itself, but you may need to take over the controls at a moment’s notice—create potential for driver confusion. It also increases the possibility that drivers using Autopilot may not be engaged enough to to react quickly to emergency situations."

    Well, to [BLANKETY] [FLOCKING] [HECK] with what you believe! You guys had a knee-jerk reaction and posted your 'beliefs' too early and with substandard practices. You should have waited until... Oh, perhaps... NOW to tell the world what you... 'think'.

    "In general, though Consumer Reports supports technology that advances the consumer interest, the independent, nonprofit organization believes in a careful balance of innovation and safety."

    Yeah, well, whatever... Howzabout using some of that 'careful balance' in your reporting in the future?

    "NHTSA's Thomas said the agency was interested in nurturing new safety technologies, and it wanted to encourage innovation even as different automakers experiment with different methods. Eventually, the industry will settle on best practices. In the meantime, the agency will continue to investigate and take action as necessary, he said."

    So, basically, they told you guys to shut the [FLOCK] up and mind your own [DURNED] business. Good.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Love x 1
  10. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,629
    Location:
    NorCal
    #170 EinSV, Jan 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
    Well, CR has to get some credit for some very slick sleight of hand in the use of statistics.

    In addition to the points you mention, the 40% reduction in accidents the IIHS predicts if AEB is adopted industry-wide is only for rear end collisions. In its Autopilot report, the NHTSA bolded, underlined and italicized "rear-end crashes" to make this distinction very clear. And CR has been working on AEB for many years, to it is very well aware that AEB's effectiveness appears to be limited to rear-end collisions.

    But rear-end collisions make up only 23-30% of all accidents. Rear-end collision - Wikipedia

    So even using the IIHS prediction, and even if you were to assume that all cars w/o AP enabled also did not have AEB (which is incorrect), AEB would only be predicted to decrease total accidents by about 10%, not 40%.

    In fact, AEB may be even less effective than this at overall accident avoidance. A recent IIHS study found that AEB plus Forward Collision Warning reduced overall accidents by only 6%, which did not even reach the level of statistical significance. http://orfe.princeton.edu/~alaink/SmartDrivingCars/Papers/IIHS-CicchinoEffectivenessOfCWS-Jan2016.pdf (see pages 1 and 15.)

    So aside from other problems, the 40% to 40% comparison is deceptive and misleading -- truly apples and oranges. But most casual readers will not pick up on this since the 40% to 40% association CR makes in its statement is so easy for the mind to latch onto.

    Disappointing. Unfortunately, not surprising at this point given the hole CR has dug for itself on Autopilot.

    CR is promoting AEB and Forward Collision Warning as the "among the most promising safety advances we’ve seen since electronic stability control almost two decades ago.” Virtually All New Cars to Have Standard Automatic Emergency Braking by 2022

    Preliminary data suggests that AP may already be far more effective at avoiding accidents than what CR sees as "among the most promising safety advances" in two decades. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that AP will only get better with fleet learning and better AP2 hardware.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Love x 2
  11. Lex_MIT

    Lex_MIT Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    The OP summary of how Autopilot is ought to be used and why using it is enjoyable is really good. Our work with large scale naturalistic data at MIT confirms a lot of his anecdotal findings.
     
    • Like x 3
  12. xkwizit

    xkwizit Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    817
    Location:
    Folsom, CA, United States
    Thanks @Lex_MIT for MIT’s scientific research confirming my post.
     
  13. AutoPilotBuddy

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Can't like yet as I'm new to the forum but what a great discussion.
    I think indeed the problem is with AP that there should be possibilities for half a day trainings with the AP offered by Tesla. Remember the older people that were able (and still are) to follow courses on "how to use Word and Excell" in the early days....

    I also liked the quote: Interesting that one person's beta (Tesla's) is better than another person's (MB, Hyundai, Infiniti) finished product.
    Don't remember who posted that but had a good laugh, thanks for that.
     
    • Love x 1
  14. Off Shore

    Off Shore Off Topic Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Messages:
    663
    Location:
    Isla de Ometepe, Nicaragua
    Careful what you say about old people, lad. If you want a great intro to Autopilot read and share this.

    Edit: PS, welcome!
     
  15. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    5,481
    Location:
    TX
    ya... and...?
     
  16. AutoPilotBuddy

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Great Stuff Papafox ! nice to read indeed your great lessons on the AP for novice users. Thanks for sharing
     
  17. Laurenf00

    Laurenf00 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Sf bay area
     
  18. IanMcL

    IanMcL Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    150
    Location:
    Laverstock
    I drive from South to North and back every fortnight. I am now 65 and found myself nodding and having to take a break, sometimes. In some instances, it was a fair distance to the next services. Windows open etc.

    I bought my Tesla with safety in mind,as well as the cool thought of zero emissions. Autopilot was a must.

    2 months later, I treat the charge stop as a good time to break and do stuff...like eat and drink. I use Autopilot on Mways and Duals and it is brilliant. I feel fine, not tired when I arrive.

    The only drawback is the need to keep a grip on the wheel! That is not meaning I wish to drive with no hands. It is that annoying intervention, which tells you to apply pressure. I already have hand(s) on the wheel, but relaxed. Grrr!

    Love my Tesla S and supercharger but especially autopilot!
     
    • Like x 3
    • Love x 1
  19. teethdood

    teethdood Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2017
    Messages:
    296
    Location:
    Visalia, California
    I hear ya. Tesla should make a steering wheel with heart rate monitor pads (like the elliptical machines) to detect whether your hands are on the wheel. Easter egg would be to display your heart rate (of course showing how relaxed we get overtime while on AP). Would be kinda neat.
     
    • Like x 2
  20. Dave Mac

    Dave Mac Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    AL
    While I look forward to the day that hands-free Autopilot/FSD is safe and effective, I have found that the current limitation is just fine on my Model 3. Knowing that there needs to be some slight torque (rotational force) on the wheel, I can rest two fingers on the bottom right side of the wheel or my left hand/thumb on the wheel with no nags ever.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC