Autopilot - positioning in lane

[tzlaxmr]

Had my Model 3 AWD for about a week (and loving it). I haven't had a chance to do much highway driving, so I've been experimenting (with my hands on the wheel) with autopilot on local double-yellow-line roads. I find the car positions itself dead center, which is rather sub-optimal on these types of roads since you have opposing traffic fairly close. I naturally keep the car to the right side of the lane on these roads...especially when there's a car coming in the other direction.

Is better lane positioning to account for traffic in other lanes something that Tesla intends to deal with anytime soon? Is this something the car can learn if I give the wheel a nudge in these scenarios often enough?

 

[ksb467]

Its programmed that way. I’m sure they’ve considered the natural human way you follow but it appears they have decided middle of the lane is in our best interest, at least to this point. I got used to it after a couple month if that helps, and love autopilot. Once you figure out the details of what it does well and where you have to supplement I love it and consider it a safety feature, not just a gimmick.

 

[kmcdds]

For the most part, I'm happy with how autopilot positions me in the middle of the lane. I've had a couple of times when an 18-wheeler has been coming towards me and drifting towards the centre line and I wish the autopilot would position me more to the right.

One thing you'll also learn, if you haven't already, is when you see a car about to cross the road in front of you, take it off autopilot. You know the car will be out of your lane in time, but it doesn't so it jams on the brakes. Once you get whiplash once or twice, you learn to take it off autopilot.

 

[BrandonLive]

For the most part, I'm happy with how autopilot positions me in the middle of the lane. I've had a couple of times when an 18-wheeler has been coming towards me and drifting towards the centre line and I wish the autopilot would position me more to the right.

One thing you'll also learn, if you haven't already, is when you see a car about to cross the road in front of you, take it off autopilot. You know the car will be out of your lane in time, but it doesn't so it jams on the brakes. Once you get whiplash once or twice, you learn to take it off autopilot.

Or maybe use it only as intended and not on streets with cross traffic?

 

[tzlaxmr]

For the most part, I'm happy with how autopilot positions me in the middle of the lane. I've had a couple of times when an 18-wheeler has been coming towards me and drifting towards the centre line and I wish the autopilot would position me more to the right.

One thing you'll also learn, if you haven't already, is when you see a car about to cross the road in front of you, take it off autopilot. You know the car will be out of your lane in time, but it doesn't so it jams on the brakes. Once you get whiplash once or twice, you learn to take it off autopilot.

Yeah, I only use autopilot for stretches without anything like that.

In any event, I disagree with keeping the car dead-center. Sure, I'd probably get used to it. But isn't it safer to position a foot or two farther away from traffic if you can? Especially around turns, opposing cars can ride the line, or even cross it, with some frequency.

My guess is that Tesla chose middle because it's simpler, not safer. ie, if they had a rule that moved the car a foot or two away from traffic in other lanes, then they'd have to be that much better at recognizing cyclists, pedestrians, or other obstacles in the shoulder. The fact that they chose to not do that suggests true self drive is far off.

 

[JSergeant]

Had my Model 3 AWD for about a week (and loving it). I haven't had a chance to do much highway driving, so I've been experimenting (with my hands on the wheel) with autopilot on local double-yellow-line roads. I find the car positions itself dead center, which is rather sub-optimal on these types of roads since you have opposing traffic fairly close. I naturally keep the car to the right side of the lane on these roads...especially when there's a car coming in the other direction.

Is better lane positioning to account for traffic in other lanes something that Tesla intends to deal with anytime soon? Is this something the car can learn if I give the wheel a nudge in these scenarios often enough?

That's one of the reasons I don't like using it on highways with truck traffic - the center of the lane makes it feel too close to trucks when you are passing them. I wish they had appropriate offsets depending on where you are relative to other traffic.

 

[ewoodrick]

Sorry, but, the center of the road is the correct place to drive. When you drive close to either line, you risk a higher probability of running into things, such as pedestrians on the side of the road.

 

[Nocturnal]

On my commute this morning I watched how the car reacted very closely. I'm actually starting to think that EAP does take into account the proximity of vehicles (maybe large ones only?) in the lane next to you which is my preference.

Sorry, but, the center of the road is the correct place to drive. When you drive close to either line, you risk a higher probability of running into things, such as pedestrians on the side of the road.

I disagree. You are safer edging closer to the honda next to you than the semi on the other side.

 

[tzlaxmr]

On my commute this morning I watched how the car reacted very closely. I'm actually starting to think that EAP does take into account the proximity of vehicles (maybe large ones only?) in the lane next to you which is my preference.

That would be good. I haven't experimented much on the highway yet. But it's definitely not the best on double-yellow-line roads. If there's opposing traffic, I take it out of EAP every time - too scary.

I get the concern re pedestrians and things in the shoulder.... But you would only program autopilot to do center lane on opposing-traffic roads if you were not confident in detection of shoulder objects from reasonably far away....which is probably the issue - autopilot doesn't seem to look terribly far ahead.

 

[Abstrakt1]

I have had mine about two months, I only use autopilot on the freeway. I am adjusting but I almost always feel like the lane positioning is different than how I would do it. It loves to hug the outside on corners even when another vehicle is in the outside lane, it leaves space between me and the other vehicle but it certainly feels uncomfortable

 

[BrandonLive]

Yeah, I only use autopilot for stretches without anything like that.

In any event, I disagree with keeping the car dead-center. Sure, I'd probably get used to it. But isn't it safer to position a foot or two farther away from traffic if you can? Especially around turns, opposing cars can ride the line, or even cross it, with some frequency.

My guess is that Tesla chose middle because it's simpler, not safer. ie, if they had a rule that moved the car a foot or two away from traffic in other lanes, then they'd have to be that much better at recognizing cyclists, pedestrians, or other obstacles in the shoulder. The fact that they chose to not do that suggests true self drive is far off.

Current EAP has no real/reliable perception of other lanes of traffic. That’s why. And further, it’s only meant to be used on roads with no opposing traffic. How are you suggesting it decide when to be closer to the left vs the right vs the center?

Future iterations will have better perception of other lanes and traffic flows which may help. But even then, center is usually the right default and appropriate the vast majority of the time.

 

[JSergeant]

Sorry, but, the center of the road is the correct place to drive. When you drive close to either line, you risk a higher probability of running into things, such as pedestrians on the side of the road.

I'm talking about highways. There shouldn't be any pedestrians there. You shouldn't be using autopilot on roads where there could be pedestrians.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

One of the reasons I didn't use AP that much in my AP1 car.

Now that I have a Model 3 I'm waiting for the V9 update to see what that does.

I don't mind centering in the lane when there is traffic all around, but I really don't want to center in the lane right next to a semi.

 

[smatthew]

I'm talking about highways. There shouldn't be any pedestrians there. You shouldn't be using autopilot on roads where there could be pedestrians.

says who? or did you mean "I don't think you should use autopilot...."

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

says who?

I think it's in the manual that one should avoid using it on surface streets.

 

[NathanielHrnblwr]

says who? or did you mean "I don't think you should use autopilot...."

Tesla.

Warning: Autosteer is intended for use only on highways and limited-access roads with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer on city streets, in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present. Never depend on Autosteer to determine an appropriate driving path. Always be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to follow these instructions could cause damage, serious injury or death.

https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf Pg. 67

 

[tzlaxmr]

Current EAP has no real/reliable perception of other lanes of traffic. That’s why. And further, it’s only meant to be used on roads with no opposing traffic. How are you suggesting it decide when to be closer to the left vs the right vs the center?

My layman's alg would be:
If traffic only to the left, stay slightly right. If traffic only to the right, stay slightly left. Else, center. Adjust for pedestrians/obstacles/jersey-barriers and semis. ... My guess is that last bit is really hard and/or the car simply can't sense far enough away to reliably determine the traffic patterns in adjacent lanes (or stuff upcoming in the shoulder), so Tesla takes the easiest solution: always center.

Anyways, I understand my surface street tests are testing a currently unsupported use-case, so I'm not gonna be too picky here.

Future iterations will have better perception of other lanes and traffic flows which may help. But even then, center is usually the right default and appropriate the vast majority of the time.

Disagree that center is correct vast majority of the time. I find myself slightly off center on surface streets, when there's some traffic, much of the time to compensate for opposing traffic, and notice other drivers do too. The humans' ML seems to have settled on that.

 

[skitown]

I have an AP1 Model S and an EAP Model 3. Was can’t use the Model S on our countey roads because it hugs the shoulder too close and hits potholes near the side of the asphalt. Conversely I can use our Model 3 on these same roads perfectly with no issue because it centers up in the lane much better.

 

[thewishmaster]

My layman's alg would be:
If traffic only to the left, stay slightly right. If traffic only to the right, stay slightly left. Else, center. Adjust for pedestrians/obstacles/jersey-barriers and semis. ... My guess is that last bit is really hard and/or the car simply can't sense far enough away to reliably determine the traffic patterns in adjacent lanes (or stuff upcoming in the shoulder), so Tesla takes the easiest solution: always center.

What about in turns or when lanes are narrower/wider or when there are cars on both sides or when the car on the left is narrower and the car on the right is wider? There's a lot of complexity to it, centering the car in the lane is the most foolproof method haha. Ideally the car should determine when the objects near you become an actual threat and compensate for that, rather than behave similar to our irrational fears.

I do agree though that on the freeway in turns I'd go a little wider than what AP does, amongst other similar situations, like passing a semi truck or something.

 

[tzlaxmr]

What about in turns or when lanes are narrower/wider or when there are cars on both sides or when the car on the left is narrower and the car on the right is wider?

Adjusting for that stuff doesn't seem hard... As noted above, I think the issue is probably that they're not confident in the car's ability to see/understand what's 100ft+ down the road. ie, if there's a pedestrian or cyclist in the shoulder, you want bias in the other direction, and you want to do that well ahead of being near the person. This seems like the biggest challenge to me because it requires real computer-vision; not ultrasonic sensors and other simpler sensing mechanisms.

There's a lot of complexity to it, centering the car in the lane is the most foolproof method haha. Ideally the car should determine when the objects near you become an actual threat and compensate for that, rather than behave similar to our irrational fears.

Our fears are hardly irrational. Opposing traffic veers near or even over the line with some frequency. You definitely want to be positioned away from that in the lane if there's not an obstacle coming up in the shoulder. Humans are defaulting correctly.

I do agree though that on the freeway in turns I'd go a little wider than what AP does, amongst other similar situations, like passing a semi truck or something.

Yeah. Adjusting slightly for big rigs also seems obvious....but also probably prone to the same issue of needing to understand at non-trivial distance what's coming up in the shoulder.