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Autopilot slowed down driving towards a red light

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Lex, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. Lex

    Lex Member

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    My Model S in full Autopilot initiated a deceleration towards a red light with no vehicles in front of it nor in the ajacent left lane.

    I cancelled in the last moments before seeing what would happen but it really was satisfying, if even just a sensor glitch, to see this promised capability "in action" for a moment. For me Autopilot has been a major safety feature and stress reliever and I look forward to using it more often in more of my driving.

    Has anyone else experienced this ? I am on an 7.1 I think 2.13.x still with no recent updates.

    It was most likely a coincidence, as the weather has been unusually cold causing some sensor issues at times.

    But I am really hopeful this is coming soon. This and stopping and resuming at stop signs, at *least* when there are no other cars around, would be yet another one of those special moments we get to share with our cars.

    Interesting Autopilot related threads:
    This *might* be the data that Mobileye passes to the Tesla computers ??? Without the video from what we've always been told though.
    This is what Autopilot sees. • /r/teslamotors

    Recent "secret" Elon visit to Mobileye to see the next gen:
    Elon Musk reportedly visited Mobileye to test tech for next gen Tesla Autopilot
     
  2. Tdriver

    Tdriver Member

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    It would have to be absolutely 100% foolproof for stops at lights. There is a big variation in the brightness and location of lights that could cause problems. I am sure it would require your hands on the wheel also.
     
  3. Lex

    Lex Member

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    Umm, right now the scenario is the car automatically (and, possibly "intentionally") barrels through red lights and stop signs. This is inherently less safe of a scenario. So stopping the vehicle safely for stop signs and stop lights, as originally promised in the Model S Autopilot, is a welcomed safety addition, even if once it merely attempts to do so IMHO.
     
  4. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    Absolutely not. Barreling through 100% of red lights unless you take over is inherently safer than barreling through 1% of red lights unless you take over.
     
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  5. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

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    This is typically caused by one of a few possible things;
    a) the intersection has no clear lane markings and the car is unsure exactly where to go, so gets into a defensive mode
    b) the intersection has a raised center making the lanes beyond it difficult for Autopilot to see the lane markings, again defense mechanism to slow down
    c) traffic exiting to the left or right of the lane the car is currently in cause the vehicle to reduce speed to avoid a collision until such time the vehicle clearly moves out of the path of the autopiloted car.
    d) the vehicle is making a slow turn into the area where the intersection is at, and the vehicle decelerates to handle the turn safely without wildly jerking the steering.
     
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  6. Lex

    Lex Member

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    Sure seems that people around here without AP-enabled cars love to come into AP threads to complain about pretty much anything AP-related. I sure hope this isn't me in a year or so with AP 2.0 or whatever else is on the horizon.

    The fact is I use Autopilot all day and once you learn how to use it most effectively, Autopilot is a major safety assist, a second set of eyes.

    But if you expect to let it completely take over driving for you, as your comments above seem to suggest, then of course it needs to be 100%.

    Autopilot is NOT autonomous driving. It is a driver assistance system. So added safety functionality, like trying to stop for stop signs and stoplights, when say perhaps the driver has been distracted or maybe didn't even see the stopsign as we have these swiveling eyeballs and head, is desired as it adds to safety.

    But if we assume people are letting their cars drive for them, then perhaps the whole system should be shelved, chalked-up to human foolishness.

    Would that make the non-AP owners who complain about everything AP-related happy ?
     
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  7. Caligula

    Caligula Member

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    I believe the point is that it's safer to know the car will ALWAYS act a certain way (e.g. run red lights) vs it automatically slowing or stopping a fraction of the time. Knowing > guessing.
     
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  8. amallah

    amallah Member

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    If it would tell you its intention, that would help a lot. When I'm in AP, I am always looking at those blue lines and the moment they start to seem incorrect is when I am ready to take over. If the car would indicate "hey, I see that light up ahead, don't you worry" that seems almost required.
     
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  9. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    I have seen the same thing happen, on a red light the car reduces the speed dramatically but not come to a full stop. I was puzzled buy it initially and then I found the root cause of the slow down with no stopping - a 20 mph school zone signboard in that section which I guess the cameras caught it and reacted.

    To test that theory I went through the same section in AP when the lights were green. And sure enough the car slowed down through the Xn and rolled on.
     
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  10. skip8jj

    skip8jj Member

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    Our 70D is about 4 weeks old and it does read read the the posted speed signs. SP is a pleasure to use whether in urban traffic and freeway, anywhere where the lanes are clearly marked.

    I did experience a situation at an intersection with a blinking red light where the car slowed significantly as approached. At first I thought it was a response to the red light but after reading this thread, I'm more inclined to believe that it was the cross traffic at the intersection that the car saw and responded too.
     
  11. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    I don't think the light had anything to do with this. I think it was TACC.

    Not sure who's noticed this, but when you're driving even with just TACC and no autosteer, the car will slow down when it approaches curves that it believes are too sharp for your current speed.

    This weekend I drove about 280 miles on autopilot, most of it on curvy/hilly rural roads. For the places where the hills and curves suggested I get off autopilot, I turned off autosteer but stayed on TACC.

    With my speed set to 60mph, anytime the car approached a fairly sharp turn, TACC slowed by about 5 mph. Consistently. So I'd suggest the car just thought for a moment that it saw a sharp curve of some sort. Just a thought, anyway.

    I'm fairly certain stoplight/stop sign recognition will be coming, but don't think they'd put any of that in without telling us.
     
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  12. Lex

    Lex Member

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    Driving by the same intersection today I did notice a slight crest before the light.

    But like mkjayakumar and skip8jj reported, I still just can't shake the feeling that it might have had something to do with the traffic lights...

    One thought is that code (perhaps tied to Emergency systems, but only activated during Autopilot) leverages the existing MobilEye stoplight data. From what we've learned MobilEye already reports stop signs and stoplights but the Model S currently ignores the data.

    Yes, I agree and with Todd and Caligula here too, yes of course we should see indicators on the dash when the code actually plans to stop you at a amber or red stoplight, flashing red (or slow at amber) or stopsign.

    Heck, if the nay-sayers win, then force me to take over, but at least acknowledge the event. Barreling through it is kinda absurd. It seems puzzling to me that there would be any concerns from anyone anywhere about adding this in, except those doing lights-off "crop tours" in small towns ??? (I've heard some stories)

    As for Autopilot in general, I'm getting to the point that I need to remind myself that Autopilot can still have a seizure of any kind at any time, as it is getting to be very predictable and reliable in the city and highway stop-and-go rush-hour traffic (which in Toronto is most of the time) even in most weather conditions.

    In fact I predict that there will soon be statistics from Tesla that suggest that Autopilot miles have much fewer accidents than human driven miles. Of course it might just be that Autopilot miles chosen to be driven were "safer" or "easier" but it will still be a milestone.

    And if the video link in OP with the boxes around people etc. is anywhere close to the real data stream we're already getting from Autopilot 1.0's MobilEye then we still have plenty more to enjoy from just the MobilEye system alone in AP 1.0.
     
  13. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

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    I agree, having driven now over 6300 miles, a large majority of it using autopilot to some extent, and I too have found the TACC to be the root cause of most of the car's wariness when approaching other traffic. I prefer it that way, but would love in addition to have the ability to find out just how many miles I drove manually vs. using just TACC cruise to accelerate or decelerate vs. full autopilot control. This alone would boost confidence that the vehicle can manage the easier driving conditions which some drivers may be weary of. But as stated and often reminded by the vehicle, the driver is the one in control and must be ready to correct any behavior the vehicle is unable to mitigate.
     
  14. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    For it to add to safety though, it would have to be less distracted and make MORE correction decisions than the driver could, wouldn't you agree? It's not there yet.

    Otherwise it's like saying that when you have your 15 year teenager in the car as a student driver, and you're the backup, you are safer than if you were to drive yourself. Believe me you're not. However, reverse the roles... if you are driving and don't see a stoplight turning, your teenager in the passenger seat can warn you - now THAT certainly makes you safer than if you were driving along.

    Same with driver assist features. If you are primary in command, and you screw up and the driver assist features take over and stop for you, that makes you safer. However, that argument only works when the better of the 2 drivers is the primary. Otherwise, it's convenience, not safety. Convenience is still a completely valid reason to use something, but don't call it safety.

    Of course, there is a chance that you're on average a worse driver than autopilot, but then you don't belong on the road...
     
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  15. hmmm

    hmmm Member

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    For background, I've only had my car for about 2 weeks and am still exploring features...here is a use case that happen to me last night that made me "pause":

    Background:

    - Divided 2 lane-road in an urban area. No traffic on either side.
    - At night. Intersection reasonably light, road very slightly uphill.
    - Red light that could be seen from 1/4 mile away.

    I was using TACC and the car did not slow down at all as I was getting closer to the red light. Since I was in test mode, I was ready for such a scenario and stopped easily.

    Anyone else with similar experiences or old timers that may have insights into why that may have happened? This intersection is close to my house, so I will keep testing this as well.
     
  16. Lex

    Lex Member

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    There's no red light slowing or stopping at all. And probably never will be added using the AP 1.0 sensor suite now, even if MobilEye can do it...
     
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  17. hmmm

    hmmm Member

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    Got it, thank you. It's interesting...red lights don't "seem" like something that would be hard to spot, but what do I know.
     
  18. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    #18 mkjayakumar, Sep 12, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
    What is not obvious to many of us, while it is very easy to spot red lights, it is incredibly hard for the system to make sure it is a red light only from the traffic light and not something from so many other sources around. Just take a picture at night with a reasonable traffic density and count at the number of red lights you will see in your picture - easily a few dozen or so. Each car in front of you will have half a dozen independent red light sources. If you couple that with the fact that positioning of traffic lights incredibly varies between different streets within the same town, not to mention across states and countries.
     
  19. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Not to a human, even a child who has never had a driver's license. But very challenging for a computer algorithm to correctly classify.
     
  20. animorph

    animorph Member

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    Heck, even a human can have trouble sometimes! I came up on an unfamiliar intersection that looked like three roads all crossing each other. A big string of traffic lights was across the intersection. Left arrows, right arrows, and straight arrows. Took a while to figure out which one I wanted, and I was only 90% certain before it turned green. I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad after a few times through for experience. Definitely a case where (future) AP would have to learn which one to watch and know where it was going in order to make that choice.
     

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