AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

[PacManMX]

To those being paid by Tesla to trivialize the concerns of some on this thread, or to those who are content with the new AP restrictions, please ignore the following. I purchased my Tesla BECAUSE of its autopilot features. The new restrictions are ridiculous. No one drives exactly the speed limit on most roads. And today my Tesla limited me to 50 mph in a 60 zone on a highway (roads clear, on a straightaway, speed limits sign posted and read by Tesla, perfect weather, sun above).

I WILL call to Tesla and complain. And I suggest everyone else who is disappointed do the same. If I had known these restrictions would be put in place I might not have bought the car. And now that I own it I will lose a lot of money if I sell it half a year after I drove it off the lot.

Unless they remove these restrictions soon, I will be a VERY unsatisfied customer. I was willing to let the small things go: the streaky windshield wipers that have been streaky since the day I got it, the creaking falcon wing doors, the subpar ability of the front defrosters, the frunk that sometimes takes multiple times to unlock, etc.... things that shouldn't happen on a $100k+ car. I WANT them to survive and I know that these little things cost them every time I bring it in. This was the part I was doing to help them out....

However, as an unsatisfied customer that feels like Tesla just took away a significant functionality from something I paid for, I will not let these things go anymore. Come on Tesla, pretty sly to sneak in such restrictions that renders AP useless off the higheay and not even mention them in the update text. You're better than this. Act like it. FIX what is obviously an error by an over zealous lawyer and make that 94% that consumer reports just gave you a 95% next year. If you want me to go to the service center and sign a paper saying I understand the risks, I'm perfectly fine with that. But don't take away functionality that was the basis of choice for me buying my car (I test drove with AP on roads, not highways).

 

[mblakele]

I wonder what version of firmware Elon is running on his car?

From what I know about software development, I'd guess that he and about 80% of the AP development team are driving APv2 hardware with test builds. They're probably working pretty hard on that, trying to get a release out for new owners and prospective buyers of APv2 cars.

Meanwhile I expect that the devs on the APv1 maintenance team are grousing about still having to work on the old hardware, and scheming to change that. Most software developers hate working on maintenance teams, and only get excited about working on whatever's new and shiny right now. The best devs often get to pick their tasks, so they're probably working on APv2. The next best devs might be working on APv1 — hey, it's still better that working on boring code like music or navigation. The most junior devs get stuck with that stuff.

 

[Zeromus-X]

No way? Turn off AP and speed up. Problem solved.

Really this thread sometimes borders on comedy. AP is a work in progress, always has been, and will continue to be for years to come. Sometimes Tesla will need to restrict it, more often they will expand its capabilities. If you can't handle that, don't use it and wait for it to be perfect.

If the solution to the problem is to turn it off and not use it, that's not really a solution to the problem. That's a solution to the symptom. The solution to the problem is not to restrict the speed.

I'd probably consider myself a heavy autopilot user so this is fairly impactful for me. I've logged about 12,000 miles on my late-June S70 and if I had to guess I'd say at least half of those are on autopilot (there should be a way to find this out!). It was a major factor in deciding to purchase the car. Restricting it to only operating at unsafe levels (i.e. not allowing you to set the speed to match the flow of traffic) is irresponsible.

 

[slevit1md]

This is the first time I've actually ignored a software release, and it's because of the new restrictions. I was hoping that they'd remove the 5 mph restriction, but they've gone and made it worse! Not only is it taking away a feature and essentially making AP useless off the highway (and not all highways are divided), but it's making things more dangerous. Going the speed limit, people following you will be pisses, they'll tailgate; swerve to pass you, etc, creating a less safe environment.

Adding features via software update is great. But the gimping that tesla has implemented is terrible. I think they've gone too far this time and I don't think there's much of an argument that it increases safety. I'm guessing that 8.1 will bring much less significant upgrades than Elon has been alluding to (wouldn't be the first time he's under delivered on software updates), and I have a hard time believing they're going to add anything significant enough to outweigh the gimping.

 

[Drone Flyer]

Soooo as we all sit around waiting "soon" for 8.1 "soon" that is now "about" 2 days past "about" 3 weeks now, according to Elon's tweet of 11-22-2016, I was thinking about my drive today. With the latest firmware updates and some AP2 functionality coming with 8.1 "soon", when AutoPilot is engaged now on non divided highways, we are now limited to the exact speed limit.

Reason 1:
If it is in anticipation of full autonomous driving coming and Tesla NOT wanting to be responsible for a traffic ticket by speeding then why are we still able to set the AP speed well above the posted speed limit on divided highways? So it can't be to avoid a traffic ticket for speeding while AutoPiloting.

Reason 2:
If it is because someone at Tesla thinks it is safer to drive the POSTED speed limit on non-divided highways I would propose that it is just the OPPOSITE of that. On an expressway there are usually several lanes to pass by and a car driving the exact speed limit is not as likely to impede the flow of traffic. As a test today I drove the EXACT speed limit during my 35 miles of errand running. I would not be exaggerating to have considered it dangerous and hazardous as people were trying every way they could to pass me. Swerving back and forth flashing their lights at me honking their horns...thereby not paying attention to enytging else around them. Even tho it doesn't sound like much the old 5mph over was actually about right for most non-divided roads to feel comfortable.

Reason 3: (and my guess)
Tesla has said from the beginning that AutoPilot was designed and meant to work on divided highways. We have all (most of us I am sure) enjoyed using it on non-divided roads and feel fairly comfortable and confident with it. By dumbing down AutoPilot(1) to maintain the exact posted speed limit Tesla has made it almost useless and unusable for that now. A design "feature" to make us NOT want to use it.

Your thoughts

Yep! And this is exactly the reason why AP 2 won't come into fruition for a number of years yet.
Very happy with AP, despite the speed limit issue. AP 2 will, because of legislation, be limited to AP 1 configuration mostly.

 

[Plaid21]

Here is a quick solution try it and let me know. It works for me.
Easy way to bypass new AP speed limit restriction

 

[David_Cary]

I thank this forum for notifying me so that I can refuse the update.
I love all the comments about shutting AP off if we don't like it. I'm actually ok with that if Tesla refunds my $$$$. No cruise control on any car that I know of limits to the speed limit. The 5 over was bad enough - but this is ridiculous.
Tesla - are you listening? I can't recommend to my friends to buy a Tesla at this time. One can only assume that AP2 might have more cameras but will be unusable because of speed limit restrictions. And for $5k?!? I really pity the fool who pays $5k (or even $8k) for AP 2.0.

It is clear to me that this speed limit restriction is Tesla's way of killing AP1.0. Not coincident that it came soon after they went to 2.0. AP1.0 is dying and Tesla sold us a product with declining functionality.
I think someone at Tesla assumes that we are stuck on the EV thing, so we will buy again no matter what they do!

 

[davidc18]

+1 to this ^^^^^^^

 

[TSLATed]

I’m super pissed about the speed limitations of the 8.0 update from a few months ago, they’re absolutely ridiculous and I wish I could go backwards to 7.x. I will not accept any new updates going forward, which is a horrible shame because I will also be forgoing any new innovation unrelated to Autopilot. I love Elon’s vision and love my Model S, but I’m sure Elon wouldn’t tolerate such restrictions on his personal Model S or X.

With every software update I feel my $2500 investment in Autopilot software eroding due to new restrictions. This has to stop!

Will there be idiots who abuse Autopilot? Yes, there are idiots who abuse everything… But you can’t design your products or services to cater to the small percentage of idiots.

Costco is a great example of getting this right. They allow you to return any product for a full refund or replacement FOR EVER (90 days for electronics). Do a tiny percentage of Costco customers abuse this lifetime refund/replacement policy? Almost certainly yes… But they don’t write their policies to cater to that tiny percentage of customers who abuse the policy, to the detriment of everyone else!

 

[wdolson]

I took a long road trip from D.C. to Venice, FL. on Dec 24. On I95 southbound in posted 70 mph speed limit and 70 mph showing on my dash I had the unpleasant and un-safe experience of my MS deciding to decelerate to 50 mph several times. Not a good thing when the traffic flow is 75 mph. Lucky I didn't get rear-ended twice as I had to floor it to get back up to traffic speed to avoid getting hit. Sure the cars behind me are still cursing me.

That is why they tell the driver to pay attention. If light conditions are such that the car can't figure out where the lanes are and where other cars are, it will slow down. I had it happen back in June, so this isn't new. In that case I was on a divided highway and we crested a hill headed due west near sunset. The sun washed out the camera's sense of where we were for a few seconds so the car slowed down until the sun flare was out of the direct line of vision for the car. We have difficulty seeing on those conditions too, but our "cameras" look away from the sun and focus on what we can see. The camera on the car is fixed and doesn't have that luxury.

The other day I also had AP limit speed when there were shadows of bare trees on the highway. I think AP got confused about which direction the lines were. The painted lines were going one way and the lines painted by the shadows and sunlight were at a 90 degree angle. I had just been to the service center and thought maybe the update they installed did something to AP, but a couple of days later I turned on AP again in the same spot with light conditions more consistent and the car worked the way it always has.

As long as I've had the car, I've one used AP in one of three situations:

1) The same situations where I would have used cruise control on my last car.
2) Stop and go traffic
3) Short stretches in town on the freeway either experimenting, or I needed my hands free for a few seconds to do something like take a swig of water (need two hands to take the cap off the bottle and put it back on). When it speed limited the other day I had turned it on to drink some water and left it on for a couple of minutes afterward.

Most of my driving, especially in town, is with AP off. I may be too much of a control freak, but I don't always like the line AP takes in the lane. It tends to pass trucks a little close for my liking and the line in curves is not very good IMO. It's also the most fun car to drive I've ever had. Why should I let the computer have all the fun?

 

[davidc18]

It is technically possible to roll back to 7.1 according to Ingineer.

 

[davidc18]

I should add that you need to let your SC know, in writing, that you do not authorize them to update your FW. Repeat verbally and make sure you confirm that the service work order starts by saying " do not update FW"

Both of ours are staying on 7.1.

 

[Scott-P]

One could argue (reasonably, I think) that there are two different situations here:

1) TACC: this is really just a sophisticated cruise control, and does not change "who" is driving the car. In this situation, it is appropriate that the (human) driver be in complete control of the vehicle, including its speed, regardless of the local regulations, in the interest of safety. Cruise control has been around for at least 30 years, and it is pretty well established that the (human) driver is responsible when it is engaged. There is a long history of the driver being allowed to set whatever speed they wish regardless of whether it is "legal" or not.

2) Autopilot/FSD: This is new territory, and there is no real history of law on who is responsible, and the degree to which the manufacturer is liable for accidents which occur when "the car" is driving. In this situation, Tesla is being reasonable and not allowing the car to exceed local restrictions to the extent that it is capable. More to the point, nowhere in any of the literature I saw about this does it say that Autopilot can (or cannot) exceed the local speed limit. This is uncharted territory, and they are being cautious.

I think that it is reasonable to expect that TACC could be set wherever the (human) driver wants it, but that Autopilot/FSD might be more restrictive. To the point of arguing this with the company, one might expect them to correct TACC when used by itself, but not when used in combination with the rest of the Autopilot suite. Of course, in the AP1 car I test drove, there was TACC, and Autosteer could be engaged by a double tap on the control. It is a bit more complex now, and since we haven't seen the AP2 structure it is hard to know where TACC ends and AP begins. Perhaps there needs to be some clear definition point when activating AP vs. TACC.

I am NOT trying to defend the current set-up or the company. At a minimum, they need to make sure that we all have clear expectations BEFORE we get stuck with them. But I think that if an argument is to be made to Tesla to restore full functionality to TACC, then that argument needs to be cogent and well considered. I think that a reasonable consumer can be anticipated to expect (in the absence of sales literature to the contrary) that a "cruise control" can be set at whatever speed the driver wishes. I am not sure the same can be said when the car is (to some extent) "driving itself". In that situation, I think we have to expect that "big brother" is going to want to "take care" of us. At some level that makes sense, since the person(s) in the car aren't actually "the driver"...

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Mknac]

That is why they tell the driver to pay attention. If light conditions are such that the car can't figure out where the lanes are and where other cars are, it will slow down. I had it happen back in June, so this isn't new. In that case I was on a divided highway and we crested a hill headed due west near sunset. The sun washed out the camera's sense of where we were for a few seconds so the car slowed down until the sun flare was out of the direct line of vision for the car. We have difficulty seeing on those conditions too, but our "cameras" look away from the sun and focus on what we can see. The camera on the car is fixed and doesn't have that luxury.

The other day I also had AP limit speed when there were shadows of bare trees on the highway. I think AP got confused about which direction the lines were. The painted lines were going one way and the lines painted by the shadows and sunlight were at a 90 degree angle. I had just been to the service center and thought maybe the update they installed did something to AP, but a couple of days later I turned on AP again in the same spot with light conditions more consistent and the car worked the way it always has.

As long as I've had the car, I've one used AP in one of three situations:

1) The same situations where I would have used cruise control on my last car.
2) Stop and go traffic
3) Short stretches in town on the freeway either experimenting, or I needed my hands free for a few seconds to do something like take a swig of water (need two hands to take the cap off the bottle and put it back on). When it speed limited the other day I had turned it on to drink some water and left it on for a couple of minutes afterward.

Most of my driving, especially in town, is with AP off. I may be too much of a control freak, but I don't always like the line AP takes in the lane. It tends to pass trucks a little close for my liking and the line in curves is not very good IMO. It's also the most fun car to drive I've ever had. Why should I let the computer have all the fun?

In my situations this was the new auto steer limitation making a bad decision. The road was well marked road; there was not sun glare nor was I cresting a hill. Like the picture in this article http://flip.it/B7h6yi auto pilot reduced my speed to 50 mph unexpectedly. I was on a major freeway, I95 south, in a 70 mph zone with 70 mph recognized on the dash. I was going 75 in traffic when it deccerlated. It was not a safe situation.

 

[GSP]

Is TACC limited to the speed limit (or less)? It was my impression that it is not, and only autosteer is limited. I am not in a position to test this for a few days, so hopefully someone with first hand experience can say.

Thanks,

GSP

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Is TACC limited to the speed limit (or less)? It was my impression that it is not, and only autosteer is limited. I am not in a position to test this for a few days, so hopefully someone with first hand experience can say.

Thanks,

GSP

Correct - TACC is NOT limited to posted speed limits.

 

[Jurnimon]

This thread is fantastic. It may have saved me $100k+. I was just about to pull the trigger on getting a MX to replace our large SUV for the end of the year rush to make sure it included free supercharging. Now I'm not so sure. We also have a reservation for a model 3 and we are reconsidering wether that makes sense as well. It's not just AP, it is the fact that the company can reduce functionality for a product you paid for which, regardless of intentionions devalues that product when compared to the latest version.

It limits their liabilities for the sake of increased revenue. Perhaps, Tesla believes their brand and market leadership is strong that they can do this, inspite of what their current customers may want. I really hope this is not the case.

As far as our current MS, we will not apply the update as we do for other products until we're forced to. At that point I'll sell the car if there is a viable alternative.Unless there is some clarifying press release or comments on their intentions, Tesla has sadly may have lost all of my consumer equity for now and it seems several folks on here feel the same way. Perhaps they are OK with this because of the 400k new customers may not know otherwise and Tesla can reframe what the Tesla experience is all about.

 

[boonedocks]

This thread is fantastic. It may have saved me $100k+. I was just about to pull the trigger on getting a MX to replace our large SUV for the end of the year rush to make sure it included free supercharging. Now I'm not so sure. We also have a reservation for a model 3 and we are reconsidering wether that makes sense as well. It's not just AP, it is the fact that the company can reduce functionality for a product you paid for which, regardless of intentionions devalues that product when compared to the latest version.

It limits their liabilities for the sake of increased revenue. Perhaps, Tesla believes their brand and market leadership is strong that they can do this, inspite of what their current customers may want. I really hope this is not the case.

As far as our current MS, we will not apply the update as we do for other products until we're forced to. At that point I'll sell the car if there is a viable alternative.Unless there is some clarifying press release or comments on their intentions, Tesla has sadly may have lost all of my consumer equity for now and it seems several folks on here feel the same way. Perhaps they are OK with this because of the 400k new customers may not know otherwise and Tesla can reframe what the Tesla experience is all about.

The latest "improvements" in AP functionality was a big reason why I did NOT pull the trigger on a new Model S to replace our early '15 S. I will not be upgrading until this is all washed out and we see where Tesla is headed. If FSD /AP2 hardware limits speed even more I will keep my current model S until it dies

 

[Science fan]

In my situations this was the new auto steer limitation making a bad decision. The road was well marked road; there was not sun glare nor was I cresting a hill. Like the picture in this article http://flip.it/B7h6yi auto pilot reduced my speed to 50 mph unexpectedly. I was on a major freeway, I95 south, in a 70 mph zone with 70 mph recognized on the dash. I was going 75 in traffic when it deccerlated. It was not a safe situation.

Is it possible that you needed to move the steering wheel a tiny amount to confirm that you had your hands on the wheel?

Regarding the speed limitation, I think most of us understand why Tesla may need to permit autopilot to drive no faster than the speed limit. They are between a rock (liability and the law) and a hard place (desire of many owners to drive faster than the speed limit). Raging against Tesla management in this case will only damage the company further because of their dilemma.

 

[scottf200]

<snip>
They are between a rock (liability and the law) and a hard place (desire of many owners to drive faster than the speed limit). Raging against Tesla management in this case will only damage the company further because of their dilemma.

@Science fan , but they are not limiting on a divided highway or limiting the TACC on either divided/non-divided so I really don't buy that excuse at all.