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AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

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Regarding the speed limitation, I think most of us understand why Tesla may need to permit autopilot to drive no faster than the speed limit. They are between a rock (liability and the law) and a hard place (desire of many owners to drive faster than the speed limit). Raging against Tesla management in this case will only damage the company further because of their dilemma.

Good summary. However, when I find I am on one side of an issue, pushing harder than the other side often results in getting my preferred result. I understand why some people empathize with Tesla's position, but that isn't going to get this resolved in a way that is satisfactory to me. Outrage, threats, and publicly may or may not. Some of us don't make decisions based on avoiding conflict at all costs.

For the shrinking violets that will accept whatever Tesla provides, it makes no difference. They bought the car because it's green / EV, and it's still much nice than their previous Prius.

But when you sell $100k cars, your are going to end up with a high percentage of customers who can and will push very hard to get what they want. (That's how they got the $100k for the car ;))
 
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@Science fan , but they are not limiting on a divided highway or limiting the TACC on either divided/non-divided so I really don't buy that excuse at all.

What you and U00mem write make sense to me. I guess I just emotionally hate to criticize Tesla, which must be confronted by a huge amount of potential liability and do not feel comfortable forcing them into what may be an untenable position. They are breaking new ground in so many aspects of this autopilot thingy and we are all rooting for them to succeed. My next Tesla will NEED full autopilot, as I will be in my 80s by that time (if I am lucky). That said, it is fine for each of us to lobby for what we think is important. Shake things up a bit and see how it all falls out.
 
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@Science fan , but they are not limiting on a divided highway or limiting the TACC on either divided/non-divided so I really don't buy that excuse at all.

Many people are experiencing limits on a divided highway, me included. For example, going from 70 down to 50. But, this is sporadic and may be a bug in the implementation, so hopefully highway speeds on divided highways will not be limited to the speed limit.
 
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Ugh. The discussion just goes round and round. There's nothing in the new speed and lockout restrictions that increases safety. There just isn't. I don't even know how that point could be argued. It's easily the weakest attempt at justification. (I'll except the nags. At least a safety case can be made there.)
So why is it safer for AP to override my judgement about what a safe speed is? What problem does it solve? Set me straight.
I'm not being negative or whiney or whatever. I am really trying to understand.
Because the software for Auto-Steering is still "beta" and prone to making errors. On a divided highway, no problem. Undivided 2 lane with narrow shoulders there is no room for the Tesla to briefly fail and recover. I, for one, wouldn't allow auto steering on undivided highways. But I'm a 72 year old CS.
 
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What you and U00mem write make sense to me. I guess I just emotionally hate to criticize Tesla, which must be confronted by a huge amount of potential liability and do not feel comfortable forcing them into what may be an untenable position. They are breaking new ground in so many aspects of this autopilot thingy and we are all rooting for them to succeed. My next Tesla will NEED full autopilot, as I will be in my 80s by that time (if I am lucky). That said, it is fine for each of us to lobby for what we think is important. Shake things up a bit and see how it all falls out.
What a clear and honest post. I love it.
 
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Is it possible that you needed to move the steering wheel a tiny amount to confirm that you had your hands on the wheel?

Regarding the speed limitation, I think most of us understand why Tesla may need to permit autopilot to drive no faster than the speed limit. They are between a rock (liability and the law) and a hard place (desire of many owners to drive faster than the speed limit). Raging against Tesla management in this case will only damage the company further because of their dilemma.

That could be a possibility but then the auto steer would have turned off and the cruise control would have stayed at 75 mph. Here the car started to deccerlate to 50 mph from 75 mph.

I don't have an issue with the speed cap in certain road situations. What concerned me is the random decceration when I was in traffic traveling 75+ mph. This happened four times during my trip while on I95.
 
That could be a possibility but then the auto steer would have turned off and the cruise control would have stayed at 75 mph. Here the car started to deccerlate to 50 mph from 75 mph.

I don't have an issue with the speed cap in certain road situations. What concerned me is the random decceration when I was in traffic traveling 75+ mph. This happened four times during my trip while on I95.
I am of the opinion that random decelerations are going to increase as the cars will have the ability to see more than what humans see. Cars will eventually be able to see 4 or 5 cars ahead - braking. They will be able to see potholes / ice patches and all sorts of things.
 
But you don't know what the car saw or was responding to.

Humans slow down for what seems like no reason all of the time - Until you find out that they weren't finished texting.
As others have pointed out, and I myself have just experienced, the car did a sudden deceleration from 70 to 50, on a limited access, divided highway, for no apparent reason, and there were no other obstacles nearby.
 
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I don't see it as a problem.

Folks...lets see the Tesla log. I'm fully aware of what @Kreten said, however I would like to know what the Tesla saw.

Did the car indeed see a slower posted speed?
Was autosteer engaged while traveling at the speed limit? I have seen autosteer engaged where the car hadn't yet seen what the posted speed limit was.
It's necessary to see the log before we jump to conclusions.
 
As others have pointed out, and I myself have just experienced, the car did a sudden deceleration from 70 to 50, on a limited access, divided highway, for no apparent reason, and there were no other obstacles nearby.
Its extremely important to know what the log says before claiming that its broken. When AP does not act like a human...it doesn't always mean that the human is right.
What did your car see?

Ultimately - when it comes down to it. AP will drive much more safely than humans - the more AP cars come into existence.

That's one of the reasons why there is a frantic search for the black box when a commercial airline flight fails. Was the pilot flying or the AP flying etc......
 
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@Science fan , but they are not limiting on a divided highway or limiting the TACC on either divided/non-divided so I really don't buy that excuse at all.

You can't compare TACC...that's effectively a smart cruise control and no different than any other car cruise control. With respect to autosteering, there is a very big difference between a divided, limited access highway and other roads. If nothing else, on a divided, limited access highway:
  • The possibility of dealing with opposite direction traffic is non-existant
  • The possibility of dealing with crossing traffic is non-existant
  • Newly merging traffic is doing about the speed limit
Even on a divided, non-limited access road (i.e., a road with islands between the two directions as some have mentioned in this threat, 2 of those 3 things are not true. As a result, it may be reasonable to assume Tesla has determined that doing in excess of the speed limit on a non-divided/non-limited access road may create a condition where the auto-steer/autopilot capability cannot recognize and deal withe the situation in time when going over the speed limit.

For example, let's say that there is a non-divided, non-limited access road -- say the two lane country highway such as in rural areas. Many of these have intersections where a road crosses perpendicularly...there isn't a light -- just the perpendicular traffic has a stop sign and is supposed to yield to the highway traffic when crossing the highway or pulling on to it. In these cases, there is the possibility that a car might merge in front of you doing 15 or 20 miles an hour when the speed limit is 55 or 60. Obviously that car is accelerating and (hopefully) the driver did not pull out in front of you if there was insufficient room for him to accelerate to highway speed, but people tend to do stupid things. It may be that Tesla determined their system could recognize this and brake to a stop (or at least slow down enough) to avoid a collision, bu that if you are doing over the speed limit, there simply isn't enough time because the maximum detection range of the AP 1.0 sensors simply doesn't permit the AP system enough time to (a) detect the vehicle, (b) process the situation and (c) take action to avoid a collision. Now if you have TACC engaged and are doing 90 mph for some reason, it is on you to recognize the issue and stop. With AP engaged, you have an expectation that the AP isn't going to drive you into a collision.

I agree that there are legal and regulatory issues here (do you allow an AP to speed and "break the law"?), but it is entirely reasonable to assume that Tesla has concluded that a sufficient safety margin cannot be achieved on non-divided, non-limited access roads if the car is speeding. At the end of the day, I think that there are three things that will drive what speed Tesla will let you operate at in autopilot mode:

1. The law (speed limit)
2. Federal guidelines/regulations on use of autopilot (these are still in development as the technology develops but right now effectively say "no speeding")
3. The technical ability of the system to identify issues and address them which is a function of:
a. the range of sensors
b. the processing time of the system
c. the potential closure rate

(a, b and c all effectively constitute "reaction time").

Because a non-divided/non-limited access road creates the potential for a greater speed differential between the Tesla (or any autopilot vehicle) and conflicting traffic, closure rate is potentially greater and thus reaction time decreased given 3a and 3b are constants.
 
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For example, let's say that there is a non-divided, non-limited access road -- say the two lane country highway such as in rural areas. Many of these have intersections where a road crosses perpendicularly...there isn't a light -- just the perpendicular traffic has a stop sign and is supposed to yield to the highway traffic when crossing the highway or pulling on to it. In these cases, there is the possibility that a car might merge in front of you doing 15 or 20 miles an hour when the speed limit is 55 or 60. Obviously that car is accelerating and (hopefully) the driver did not pull out in front of you if there was insufficient room for him to accelerate to highway speed, but people tend to do stupid things. It may be that Tesla determined their system could recognize this and brake to a stop (or at least slow down enough) to avoid a collision, bu that if you are doing over the speed limit, there simply isn't enough time because the maximum detection range of the AP 1.0 sensors simply doesn't permit the AP system enough time to (a) detect the vehicle, (b) process the situation and (c) take action to avoid a collision.

Now if you have TACC engaged and are doing 90 mph for some reason, it is on you to recognize the issue and stop. With AP engaged, you have an expectation that the AP isn't going to drive you into a collision.
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I appreciate you taking the time with your response. In the rural road example above I really don't see the difference between TACC and AP1 when going 55 MPH vs 60 MPH (+5 as it did before). TACC and AP1 are using the same hardware in technical ability reasoning:

3. The technical ability of the system to identify issues and address them which is a function of:
a. the range of sensors
b. the processing time of the system
c. the potential closure rate