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AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

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The more Tesla locks down the drivers options with regards to AP functionality the more they open themselves up to being liable for any accidents that happen. The artificial restrictions on the system are creating a safety issue and making AP much less useful. Just wait until AP 2.0 is rolled out and they restrict the maximum speed to the posted limit at all times on all roads. They can be no other final outcome with the direction they have taken. They simply can not allow the new system to exceed the posted speed limit which is one reason I am against any restrictions and we will not be updating either of our cars. Good luck to everyone with AP 2.0.
 
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The more Tesla locks down the drivers options with regards to AP functionality the more they open themselves up to being liable for any accidents that happen. The artificial restrictions on the system are creating a safety issue and making AP much less useful. Just wait until AP 2.0 is rolled out and they restrict the maximum speed to the posted limit at all times on all roads. They can be no other final outcome with the direction they have taken. They simply can not allow the new system to exceed the posted speed limit which is one reason I am against any restrictions and we will not be updating either of our cars. Good luck to everyone with AP 2.0.

@davisc18 I was so close to pulling the trigger on an AP2 car before year end but something just kept holding me back....lack of 100D...maybe....more likely waiting to see this happening and foreseeing without knowledge that AP2 would most likely end up being less useful even after it gets activated...SOON...
 
The more Tesla locks down the drivers options with regards to AP functionality the more they open themselves up to being liable for any accidents that happen. The artificial restrictions on the system are creating a safety issue and making AP much less useful. Just wait until AP 2.0 is rolled out and they restrict the maximum speed to the posted limit at all times on all roads. They can be no other final outcome with the direction they have taken. They simply can not allow the new system to exceed the posted speed limit which is one reason I am against any restrictions and we will not be updating either of our cars. Good luck to everyone with AP 2.0.

I agree with you with exception to the liability. Tesla is taking the steps it needs to build full autonomy. If a fully autonomous car exceeds the speed limit on its own who is at fault? If a driver with AP 1 exceeds the speed limit it is a user intervention. Tesla isn't going to want to have to provide data proving this on full autonomous vehicles. It also wants to collect accurate data to use in the neural networks so it wants to make the cars drive the speed limit. I agree it can be unsafe and annoying.
 
It is a toss up. If there are no restrictions then the driver is clearly in charge of all decisions. With the restrictions, perhaps not so much. I am certain that before FSD is available, AP 2.0 will refuse to exceed any posted speed limit. As it has been mentioned numerous times since FW 7.1 was rolled out, the car do not actually know where it is. All speed limit restrictions come from what the front camera can see. There is no geographical checking to verify if what the camera sees correlates to the location and direction of the car. There are often gross errors. If/when one of these errors is determined to be the causal factor in a crash, Tesla will be liable (in my opinion). I was pretty excited about the future of AP 2.0+ until I thought about what Tesla has done since AP 1.0 was turned on with FW 7.0. I could be wrong. Time will tell.
 
Off topic, but do you have a reference to this new law? I can't find it anywhere. I'd like to print it out to carry it with me on the car.

I found ones about driving below the speed limit in the left lane, but couldn't find the one you mention...

My SO (who is an attorney) told me about it. I don't know where she saw it, but I'll ask her about it.
 
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@BerTX Perhaps this but not sure about it saying you can be in violation if going at speedlimit. RCW 46.61.425: Minimum speed regulation—Passing slow moving vehicle.

Yes, I saw that, thanks. It states" No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law"

This definitely does not imply an infraction for slowing the flow of traffic by going the speed limit -- it states exactly the opposite. It is also an older law (1977), so obviously not the one referenced by wdolson above.
 
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@BerTX Perhaps this but not sure about it saying you can be in violation if going at speedlimit. RCW 46.61.425: Minimum speed regulation—Passing slow moving vehicle.

I don't think that section ever makes it illegal to drive at the speed limit just because the flow of traffic is faster than the speed limit.

The Section says: "No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law...."

In a 65 MPH zone, driving 65 is necessary to comply with the states existing speed limit laws. Therefore, driving at 65 in such a zone qualifies for the exception where "reduced speed is...in compliance with law."
 
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Off topic, but do you have a reference to this new law? I can't find it anywhere. I'd like to print it out to carry it with me on the car.

I found ones about driving below the speed limit in the left lane, but couldn't find the one you mention...

There is no chance that is an actual law. You cannot be cited for obeying the law. That's absurd.
 
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There is no chance that is an actual law. You cannot be cited for obeying the law. That's absurd.

Agreed. I know there are some rural roads here in WA that have signage that dictates the unlawfulness of causing delays to x amount of cars behind you by driving slow. But you would never get a ticket or win in court if you were driving the speed limit and people were still piling up behind you. That's on them for trying to break the law - not you.

Remember - even though local customs do vary, a police officer can write you a ticket for going even 1 mph over the speed limit. 1 mph over the speed limit is technically breaking the law. I know different regions have difficulty adhering to universal standards, but it's certainly not the fault of a driver exploring a new area who happens to be going the speed limit (as they should) and some local asshole behind him is laying on the horn because he assumes this driver is a regular in the area and perfectly acclimated to how people drive there.
 
Yes, I saw that, thanks. It states" No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law"

This definitely does not imply an infraction for slowing the flow of traffic by going the speed limit -- it states exactly the opposite. It is also an older law (1977), so obviously not the one referenced by wdolson above.

I asked her about it and she came up with this:

RCW 46.61.100
(4) It is a traffic infraction to drive continuously in the left lane of a multilane roadway when it impedes the flow of other traffic.

This is the statute relied upon when giving people tickets for impeding traffic - even if the slower driver was observing the posted speed limit.

The way laws are interpreted vary a bit from state to state. In some states, if the law does not specifically allow something, it is prohibited and in others if the law does not specifically prohibit it, it is allowed. Washington is one of the latter states. The above law makes no mention of the speed limit, which means the police can use it to interpret that you could get a ticket for driving the speed limit in the left hand lane if you are holding up traffic.

This is from a couple of years ago:
Hey left-lane campers: June is 'Left Lane Awareness Month'

They did do a crackdown in March of this year:
State Patrol tracking down drivers who are left-lane hogs
Troopers cracking down on left-lane drivers

It appears I was wrong about the details. This only applies to the left lane. In the future I guess if you use AP, you will be limited to the right lane or block traffic if the car won't go above the speed limit. That's going to be a major pain as most states have lower truck speed limits. You will end up frequently boxed in behind trucks as the car will only do the speed limit, but the left lane is above the speed limit.

Personally I think this is going to slow down the adoption of autonomous driving. I'll be less likely to use AP now except in stop and go traffic.
 
I asked her about it and she came up with this:



The way laws are interpreted vary a bit from state to state. In some states, if the law does not specifically allow something, it is prohibited and in others if the law does not specifically prohibit it, it is allowed. Washington is one of the latter states. The above law makes no mention of the speed limit, which means the police can use it to interpret that you could get a ticket for driving the speed limit in the left hand lane if you are holding up traffic.

This is from a couple of years ago:
Hey left-lane campers: June is 'Left Lane Awareness Month'

They did do a crackdown in March of this year:
State Patrol tracking down drivers who are left-lane hogs
Troopers cracking down on left-lane drivers

It appears I was wrong about the details. This only applies to the left lane. In the future I guess if you use AP, you will be limited to the right lane or block traffic if the car won't go above the speed limit. That's going to be a major pain as most states have lower truck speed limits. You will end up frequently boxed in behind trucks as the car will only do the speed limit, but the left lane is above the speed limit.

Personally I think this is going to slow down the adoption of autonomous driving. I'll be less likely to use AP now except in stop and go traffic.

Must be going crazy over on the speedabiders.com forum! I know some of you have accounts over there, lol
 
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I asked her about it and she came up with this:



The way laws are interpreted vary a bit from state to state. In some states, if the law does not specifically allow something, it is prohibited and in others if the law does not specifically prohibit it, it is allowed. Washington is one of the latter states. The above law makes no mention of the speed limit, which means the police can use it to interpret that you could get a ticket for driving the speed limit in the left hand lane if you are holding up traffic.

This is from a couple of years ago:
Hey left-lane campers: June is 'Left Lane Awareness Month'

They did do a crackdown in March of this year:
State Patrol tracking down drivers who are left-lane hogs
Troopers cracking down on left-lane drivers

It appears I was wrong about the details. This only applies to the left lane. In the future I guess if you use AP, you will be limited to the right lane or block traffic if the car won't go above the speed limit. That's going to be a major pain as most states have lower truck speed limits. You will end up frequently boxed in behind trucks as the car will only do the speed limit, but the left lane is above the speed limit.

Personally I think this is going to slow down the adoption of autonomous driving. I'll be less likely to use AP now except in stop and go traffic.

This law really has nothing to do with any limitations on AP. Left lane travel is for passing regardless of your speed.


If you're going 60 in a 65 and you move into the left lane to pass someone going 55 you're in the right. Just because someone comes behind you going 65 or more doesn't make you susceptible to getting a ticket.
 
$2500 if they're smart, if not, they're out an awful lot more for "full self driving" which has no promised feature set, no release date, and no possibility of ever existing with that sensor suite. That said, you probably will need to pay that part to ever get the promised AP1 functionality.
As a shareholder, this has worried me since the announcement. There's huge liability there. Even say that everything goes great and the system works as designed. If regulators don't approve it, or eventually decide for example that something like a LIDAR sensor up front is mandatory for pedestrian detection, people who paid for this option with the current sensor suite are out of luck. I'm worried about the class action implications of actively selling an unreleased feature that has a high probability of getting held up by governmental bureaucracy (despite the "pending regulatory approval" language that I'm not sure really provides much protection).

The speed restrictions tie into that, I think. Will regulators approve a system the user can set above the speed limit? I'm not so sure.
 
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This law really has nothing to do with any limitations on AP. Left lane travel is for passing regardless of your speed.

If you're going 60 in a 65 and you move into the left lane to pass someone going 55 you're in the right. Just because someone comes behind you going 65 or more doesn't make you susceptible to getting a ticket.

Most intercity highways are 2 lanes in each direction and most states have different speed limits for semis, vehicles with trailers, and passenger cars. Because of the lower speed limit for trucks, most of them are in the slow lane. Anyone trying to drive a passenger car at the speed limit in that lane is going to end up driving the truck speed limit most of the time because they can't get into the left lane to pass the trucks. On the rare occasion there isn't much traffic, it might be possible, but that's a rare occurrence in my experience.

The way things shake out on those highways is the right lane is for trucks and the slow pokes and the left lane is for everyone else. If you are unwilling to do the speed everyone else in the left lane wants to do, which is usually around 10 mph over the car speed limit, you are going to be blocking traffic.

Someone who is sticking to the speed limit and going in and out of the right hand lane, only using the left for passing is likely going to cause an accident when they pull into the left to pass a truck doing 65 and someone doing 80 is already in the lane.

Speeding in and of itself causes few accidents. Especially only a few miles an hour over the speed limit. When speed is a factor in an accident it's when somebody does something or something happens beyond just speeding. The faster you are going when a blown tire happens, usually the worse things are, but most people drive their entire lives without having a blow out. I've seen it happen twice, one in a car and another time I saw a semi tire blow. The car tire blow out totaled the car, but it didn't appear anyone was hurt. The truck just kept going.

Other things can happen beyond just a blow out that can cause a single car accident. People hit debris, animals, or have other mechanical problems that can cause accidents. Speeding at these times can make the accident worse.

The other situation where speed can be a contributing factor in an accident is when either the speeding car is maneuvering, or another car maneuvers into the speeding car's path. People who frequently change lanes are putting themselves and others at a lot more risk than people who are just cruising along in one lane, even if they are a bit over the speed limit. I have seen kids weaving around cars on the freeway on several occasions and many times they have almost caused accidents as they slit into narrow gaps and cut things very close.

On a clear day, dry pavement, traffic load within the limits of the road, etc. it's rare for moderate speeding to contribute to accidents. Especially if everyone is traveling around the same speed.
 
I asked her about it and she came up with this:



The way laws are interpreted vary a bit from state to state. In some states, if the law does not specifically allow something, it is prohibited and in others if the law does not specifically prohibit it, it is allowed. Washington is one of the latter states. The above law makes no mention of the speed limit, which means the police can use it to interpret that you could get a ticket for driving the speed limit in the left hand lane if you are holding up traffic.

This is from a couple of years ago:
Hey left-lane campers: June is 'Left Lane Awareness Month'

They did do a crackdown in March of this year:
State Patrol tracking down drivers who are left-lane hogs
Troopers cracking down on left-lane drivers

It appears I was wrong about the details. This only applies to the left lane. In the future I guess if you use AP, you will be limited to the right lane or block traffic if the car won't go above the speed limit. That's going to be a major pain as most states have lower truck speed limits. You will end up frequently boxed in behind trucks as the car will only do the speed limit, but the left lane is above the speed limit.

Personally I think this is going to slow down the adoption of autonomous driving. I'll be less likely to use AP now except in stop and go traffic.

You still can't give someone a ticket for going 70 when the speed limit is 70, even if they're in the left lane.