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AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

Discussion in 'Model S' started by boonedocks, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. davidc18

    davidc18 Active Member

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    The more Tesla locks down the drivers options with regards to AP functionality the more they open themselves up to being liable for any accidents that happen. The artificial restrictions on the system are creating a safety issue and making AP much less useful. Just wait until AP 2.0 is rolled out and they restrict the maximum speed to the posted limit at all times on all roads. They can be no other final outcome with the direction they have taken. They simply can not allow the new system to exceed the posted speed limit which is one reason I am against any restrictions and we will not be updating either of our cars. Good luck to everyone with AP 2.0.
     
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  2. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    @davisc18 I was so close to pulling the trigger on an AP2 car before year end but something just kept holding me back....lack of 100D...maybe....more likely waiting to see this happening and foreseeing without knowledge that AP2 would most likely end up being less useful even after it gets activated...SOON...
     
  3. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    This BS is finally showing up on electrek and jalopnik
     
  4. GTIceman

    GTIceman Member

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    I agree with you with exception to the liability. Tesla is taking the steps it needs to build full autonomy. If a fully autonomous car exceeds the speed limit on its own who is at fault? If a driver with AP 1 exceeds the speed limit it is a user intervention. Tesla isn't going to want to have to provide data proving this on full autonomous vehicles. It also wants to collect accurate data to use in the neural networks so it wants to make the cars drive the speed limit. I agree it can be unsafe and annoying.
     
  5. kavyboy

    kavyboy Member

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  6. davidc18

    davidc18 Active Member

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    It is a toss up. If there are no restrictions then the driver is clearly in charge of all decisions. With the restrictions, perhaps not so much. I am certain that before FSD is available, AP 2.0 will refuse to exceed any posted speed limit. As it has been mentioned numerous times since FW 7.1 was rolled out, the car do not actually know where it is. All speed limit restrictions come from what the front camera can see. There is no geographical checking to verify if what the camera sees correlates to the location and direction of the car. There are often gross errors. If/when one of these errors is determined to be the causal factor in a crash, Tesla will be liable (in my opinion). I was pretty excited about the future of AP 2.0+ until I thought about what Tesla has done since AP 1.0 was turned on with FW 7.0. I could be wrong. Time will tell.
     
  7. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    My SO (who is an attorney) told me about it. I don't know where she saw it, but I'll ask her about it.
     
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  8. scottf200

    scottf200 Active Member

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    @BerTX Perhaps this but not sure about it saying you can be in violation if going at speedlimit. RCW 46.61.425: Minimum speed regulation—Passing slow moving vehicle.
     
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  9. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

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    Yes, I saw that, thanks. It states" No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law"

    This definitely does not imply an infraction for slowing the flow of traffic by going the speed limit -- it states exactly the opposite. It is also an older law (1977), so obviously not the one referenced by wdolson above.
     
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  10. Economite

    Economite Member

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    I don't think that section ever makes it illegal to drive at the speed limit just because the flow of traffic is faster than the speed limit.

    The Section says: "No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law...."

    In a 65 MPH zone, driving 65 is necessary to comply with the states existing speed limit laws. Therefore, driving at 65 in such a zone qualifies for the exception where "reduced speed is...in compliance with law."
     
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  11. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    There is no chance that is an actual law. You cannot be cited for obeying the law. That's absurd.
     
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  12. Mattzilla

    Mattzilla Member

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    Agreed. I know there are some rural roads here in WA that have signage that dictates the unlawfulness of causing delays to x amount of cars behind you by driving slow. But you would never get a ticket or win in court if you were driving the speed limit and people were still piling up behind you. That's on them for trying to break the law - not you.

    Remember - even though local customs do vary, a police officer can write you a ticket for going even 1 mph over the speed limit. 1 mph over the speed limit is technically breaking the law. I know different regions have difficulty adhering to universal standards, but it's certainly not the fault of a driver exploring a new area who happens to be going the speed limit (as they should) and some local asshole behind him is laying on the horn because he assumes this driver is a regular in the area and perfectly acclimated to how people drive there.
     
  13. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    I asked her about it and she came up with this:

    The way laws are interpreted vary a bit from state to state. In some states, if the law does not specifically allow something, it is prohibited and in others if the law does not specifically prohibit it, it is allowed. Washington is one of the latter states. The above law makes no mention of the speed limit, which means the police can use it to interpret that you could get a ticket for driving the speed limit in the left hand lane if you are holding up traffic.

    This is from a couple of years ago:
    Hey left-lane campers: June is 'Left Lane Awareness Month'

    They did do a crackdown in March of this year:
    State Patrol tracking down drivers who are left-lane hogs
    Troopers cracking down on left-lane drivers

    It appears I was wrong about the details. This only applies to the left lane. In the future I guess if you use AP, you will be limited to the right lane or block traffic if the car won't go above the speed limit. That's going to be a major pain as most states have lower truck speed limits. You will end up frequently boxed in behind trucks as the car will only do the speed limit, but the left lane is above the speed limit.

    Personally I think this is going to slow down the adoption of autonomous driving. I'll be less likely to use AP now except in stop and go traffic.
     
  14. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    Must be going crazy over on the speedabiders.com forum! I know some of you have accounts over there, lol
     
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  15. RAW84

    RAW84 Member

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    This law really has nothing to do with any limitations on AP. Left lane travel is for passing regardless of your speed.


    If you're going 60 in a 65 and you move into the left lane to pass someone going 55 you're in the right. Just because someone comes behind you going 65 or more doesn't make you susceptible to getting a ticket.
     
  16. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    As a shareholder, this has worried me since the announcement. There's huge liability there. Even say that everything goes great and the system works as designed. If regulators don't approve it, or eventually decide for example that something like a LIDAR sensor up front is mandatory for pedestrian detection, people who paid for this option with the current sensor suite are out of luck. I'm worried about the class action implications of actively selling an unreleased feature that has a high probability of getting held up by governmental bureaucracy (despite the "pending regulatory approval" language that I'm not sure really provides much protection).

    The speed restrictions tie into that, I think. Will regulators approve a system the user can set above the speed limit? I'm not so sure.
     
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  17. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Most intercity highways are 2 lanes in each direction and most states have different speed limits for semis, vehicles with trailers, and passenger cars. Because of the lower speed limit for trucks, most of them are in the slow lane. Anyone trying to drive a passenger car at the speed limit in that lane is going to end up driving the truck speed limit most of the time because they can't get into the left lane to pass the trucks. On the rare occasion there isn't much traffic, it might be possible, but that's a rare occurrence in my experience.

    The way things shake out on those highways is the right lane is for trucks and the slow pokes and the left lane is for everyone else. If you are unwilling to do the speed everyone else in the left lane wants to do, which is usually around 10 mph over the car speed limit, you are going to be blocking traffic.

    Someone who is sticking to the speed limit and going in and out of the right hand lane, only using the left for passing is likely going to cause an accident when they pull into the left to pass a truck doing 65 and someone doing 80 is already in the lane.

    Speeding in and of itself causes few accidents. Especially only a few miles an hour over the speed limit. When speed is a factor in an accident it's when somebody does something or something happens beyond just speeding. The faster you are going when a blown tire happens, usually the worse things are, but most people drive their entire lives without having a blow out. I've seen it happen twice, one in a car and another time I saw a semi tire blow. The car tire blow out totaled the car, but it didn't appear anyone was hurt. The truck just kept going.

    Other things can happen beyond just a blow out that can cause a single car accident. People hit debris, animals, or have other mechanical problems that can cause accidents. Speeding at these times can make the accident worse.

    The other situation where speed can be a contributing factor in an accident is when either the speeding car is maneuvering, or another car maneuvers into the speeding car's path. People who frequently change lanes are putting themselves and others at a lot more risk than people who are just cruising along in one lane, even if they are a bit over the speed limit. I have seen kids weaving around cars on the freeway on several occasions and many times they have almost caused accidents as they slit into narrow gaps and cut things very close.

    On a clear day, dry pavement, traffic load within the limits of the road, etc. it's rare for moderate speeding to contribute to accidents. Especially if everyone is traveling around the same speed.
     
  18. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    You still can't give someone a ticket for going 70 when the speed limit is 70, even if they're in the left lane.
     
  19. JMG

    JMG Member

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    Very very frustrating. I drive 70 miles per day on a two lane road and I always set the speed limit to 5 over. I used to set it to 6 or 7 over until the other update.

    I do NOT like this at all.

    What is the concensus as to the most effective way to complain?
     
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  20. mblakele

    mblakele pre-jackpot member

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    An MIT web page titled State "keep right" laws has a nice table which boils down to: it varies quite a bit by state. The entry for Virginia, for example, reads "Yield left lane to faster traffic on signal. State police say this applies even when faster traffic is speeding" — however I note that the link leads to a 404 page.
     

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