Autopilot test on curvy road

[Vger]

We had a very similar experience with our first trial. We live on an island, where the only actual highways are a ferry ride away, so we at first tried out the main artery road of the island, which is reasonably well-marked, but a winding two-lane rural blacktop with almost continuous curves. Unlike the OP's road, it is tightly bounded by forests most of the way.

The autopilot would enable almost immediately, reading the center (double yellow line) and edge (single white) lines. While glare could be an issue on a few corners, in most cases it was clear that it was the tight radius of a number of curves that triggered the "panic" red warning to take control. In every case, my own sense of safety triggered a return of grip on the wheel about 0.1 to 0.2 sec BEFORE the warning went off. It is pretty clear that in those instances, the care WOULD have left the road if I had not taken control immediately.

Trying to get TACC to lock onto a leading car only made the problem worse, since the traffic we encountered, while moving at a safe speed for a human driver, was WAY above what the algorithm could currently handle on the undulating curves and hills.

Elon has acknowledged the tight curve limitation a number of times, and this is CLEARLY not the intended use at this point. My only concern is that the system is really quite permissive, allowing you to engage it on roads that it could know, from a scan of GIS data, are simply too curvy to qualify for its current characteristics.

It also seems like it simply is limited in the rate of guided turn it can do at this point. This may be a function of the feedback loop timing from sensor through algorithm to steering effector and back again.

Bottom line: testing on winding country roads is a white-knuckle exercise, for now, and not so much fun!

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I would agree. I hope the car under AP will slow with turns and actually turn.

The problem seems to be that at present, on winding roads, the rate of turn it can manage is not up to the speed limits or safe driving capabilities of a human driver. So if it tried to slow down to keep the rate of turn within the limits it can manage, it would be way under the speed limit and normal traffic flow. We just are not at that point yet.

And I would say, we need not be. Driving a winding country road is still FUN, thats what we have the great performance capabilities of the car for!

This is an AutoPilot, not autonomous driving! Air and sea pilots would not use their autopilot modes in comparable conditions either!

 

[brkaus]

It is likely a design decision to only allow a maximum rate of steering adjustment.

This would make it safer under normal designed (highway) conditions. Limited turn rate would keep it from darting off into the weeds if it gets confused at highway speeds.

 

[OConnorStP]

Agree - winding roads are white-knuckle driving for now

I (of course) ignored Tesla's admonition that auto-pilot is only for use on center-divided highways and tried it on a winding 2-lane road here in rural Wisconsin. Hands on the wheel, per instructions.

1st-encounter -- of course I was driving faster than the yellow-sign recommendation. Car took a line that brought it well over the double-yellow lines into the oncoming lane. No harm, there wasn't any traffic. But like Vger above, I reacted a hair faster than the car and took control back.

2nd-encounter -- also two-lane road, but wider and less winding. As before, all good until it wasn't. This time the car started to head into the opposite lane and there was an oncoming car there. OK, done. Gonna have to wait to get to the Big City to conduct any more trials.

The other thing I noticed is that the line the car takes through a sharper curve feels like it's bouncing between the inside and outside of the curve, rather than fitting a curve that matches the road. Lots more steering changes than I would make. And the steering changes are more abrupt than my norm. Almost felt like the track technique of using sharp cornering changes to scrub speed off in a corner.

I don't think Tesla is kidding -- using this release doesn't seem advised on winding non-divided highways.

 

[CHG-ON]

I'm not sure why, but I have noticed when using TACC before the upgrade (installing now), when I turned the wheel, the car would slow down on it's own and then return to the set point after I straightened the wheel. I have gotten very used to it. A nice feature that makes a lot of sense. Hopefully they will implement that soon in AP. Check out this vid, where it appears that the car does slow down on it's own. Though I am not exactly sure why, as the driver was going straight. An environmental issue that the car sensed?

http://youtu.be/Mx4RjZRZon0

 

[Sean Dunn]

Yeah, this follows my own experience while driving. Autopilot is meant for highway driving, even though it can be enabled on surface streets. It won't slow down for advisory speeds. It won't slow down for different speed limits. It also won't handle really tight turns.

But taking it on the highway, it's pretty sweet.

 

[oneday]

CHG-ON have you tried auto pilot on hwy 17 yet?? I'm really curious how well it handles that curvy highway.

 

[Stoneymonster]

CHG-ON have you tried auto pilot on hwy 17 yet?? I'm really curious how well it handles that curvy highway.

I tried it both ways today. It manages ok, but has a lot of trouble with the heavy curves on both sides of the summit. I wouldn't recommend it right now except for the straights as you come into Scott's Valley and Los Gatos. I was impressed but it is isn't there yet for challenging roads like this. There isn't much time to react if it gives up or makes a mistake.

 

[oneday]

I tried it both ways today. It manages ok, but has a lot of trouble with the heavy curves on both sides of the summit. I wouldn't recommend it right now except for the straights as you come into Scott's Valley and Los Gatos. I was impressed but it is isn't there yet for challenging roads like this. There isn't much time to react if it gives up or makes a mistake.

Not surprised. The 17 is a tough road. I don't any longer, but I drove the 17 for a decade and I feel the stress of that road took some years off my life.

Anyways, thanks for being the guinea pig for future drivers.

 

[McMuggets]

I think it is important to mention that the Tesla is the only car currently on the market with this advanced of an autopilot. Next closest to it would be Mercedes. The Mercedes wouldn't even attempt to do the curves shown in that video.

 

[trond.strom]

why doesnt the car slow down? in the release notes there is a point about TACC slowing down for tight turns.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Not surprised. The 17 is a tough road. I don't any longer, but I drove the 17 for a decade and I feel the stress of that road took some years off my life.

Anyways, thanks for being the guinea pig for future drivers.

Yup. There was one spot where it clearly thought driving into a railing would be fun.

 

[Seattle]

why doesnt the car slow down? in the release notes there is a point about TACC slowing down for tight turns.
View attachment 98145

Good find, it's not slowing down on corners at all afaik - the obvious somewhat next feature is to slow down on corners. You could slow down a bit even without reading any slow down for curve to xx speed limit signs. let's see, you'd need a model that takes into account the slope of the road, and the tightness of the turn. That's not an easy thing to do but it's doable. The car can't be getting much info about the turn, I can see that it often sees the car ahead curving, as well as showing the road curving a bit. But the limits of its vision don't go far awy.

But that seems like the obvious next step for them. Based on the release notes about it doing that, the question is did that get cut from the release, or what is meant by "higher speeds" and "tight turns"

 

[Stoneymonster]

Good find, it's not slowing down on corners at all afaik - the obvious somewhat next feature is to slow down on corners. You could slow down a bit even without reading any slow down for curve to xx speed limit signs. let's see, you'd need a model that takes into account the slope of the road, and the tightness of the turn. That's not an easy thing to do but it's doable. The car can't be getting much info about the turn, I can see that it often sees the car ahead curving, as well as showing the road curving a bit. But the limits of its vision don't go far awy.

But that seems like the obvious next step for them. Based on the release notes about it doing that, the question is did that get cut from the release, or what is meant by "higher speeds" and "tight turns"

I definitely 100% absolutely noticed several times the car slowing into curves on highway 17, without a prior car slowing in front.

 

[Bart Decrem]

Bummer. I drive 17 once or twice a week and it's super fatiguing because of the turns (and the big rigs that add the excitement). If AP can tackle that stretch, I may well buy a Tesla just for that - will still try with my buddy's car on the flat stretches, tomorrow.

Here's hoping AP keeps getting better quickly. If the crowd-learning truly works, it can be super powerful.

Not surprised. The 17 is a tough road. I don't any longer, but I drove the 17 for a decade and I feel the stress of that road took some years off my life.

Anyways, thanks for being the guinea pig for future drivers.

 

[Discoducky]

I definitely 100% absolutely noticed several times the car slowing into curves on highway 17, without a prior car slowing in front.

Did hwy17 work for you? Would love to see a video of that!

 

[Stoneymonster]

Did hwy17 work for you? Would love to see a video of that!

See post 27 in this thread. Short answer: it works in parts. Might work well in heavy traffic. Avoid in the heavy curves near the summit.

 

[wk057]

Good find, it's not slowing down on corners at all afaik - the obvious somewhat next feature is to slow down on corners. You could slow down a bit even without reading any slow down for curve to xx speed limit signs. let's see, you'd need a model that takes into account the slope of the road, and the tightness of the turn. That's not an easy thing to do but it's doable. The car can't be getting much info about the turn, I can see that it often sees the car ahead curving, as well as showing the road curving a bit. But the limits of its vision don't go far awy.

But that seems like the obvious next step for them. Based on the release notes about it doing that, the question is did that get cut from the release, or what is meant by "higher speeds" and "tight turns"

Definitely has been slowing down for some curves for me. This seems more based on GPS data and when you're going over the speed limit. And happens when auto steer isn't engaged now as well, which is annoying since I know what speed I want to take curves at.

 

[hobbes]

Definitely has been slowing down for some curves for me. This seems more based on GPS data and when you're going over the speed limit. And happens when auto steer isn't engaged now as well, which is annoying since I know what speed I want to take curves at.

Autopilot 1.01 coming soon: curve speed adaption, controller smoothness, better lane holding on poor roads, improved fleet learning!

That seems to suggest no curve speed adaption out yet (which contradicts yours and other reports) - or was just short and he meant "improved curve speed adaption"?

 

[SR22pilot]

Ah, but I have a drone. It's full hands on, all the time. No Hands, Not Pretty.

Maybe I need an autonomous drone!

You need a new drone. Most drones today offer the ability to enter a flight path and then have the drone fly it along with modes like follow me.

 

[billarnett]

That seems to suggest no curve speed adaption out yet (which contradicts yours and other reports) - or was just short and he meant "improved curve speed adaption"?

Lets hope that "improved" means a Setting to accommodate a range of different driving styles. The way it works now is so outrageously conservative from my perspective that I have to turn AP off completely on curvy roads. Others may have the opposite opinion. It would seem to be easy enough to have a Setting that controls how aggressive it is about slowing for corners. We have similar settings for other aspects of the car (steering effort, speed limit offset, creep, Insane Mode...)

But a far bigger problem, it seems to me, is that from what I can tell it doesn't slow down until the car is already into the corner. If at that point the speed is too fast to successfully negotiate the corner then an accident is inevitable. For this to be a useful safety feature it has to slow down BEFORE the corner. And of course, the means relying on the map data not just the current speed and steering angle. Or perhaps it could read the yellow curve speed warning signs. But then it would be even more important to have a driver Setting (I usually take corners at about 150 percent of the warning sign's speed if I don't have any other information; other drivers no doubt have different preferences).