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Autopilot with Navigation needs a bit of work

haroldo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
342
170
NJ
Today, I used Navigation with Autopilot on an empty highway (no cars within 1/2 mile ahead, nor behind).
Two miles before a right side exit, the car moved to the right lane, then 30 seconds later moved to the left lane (two lane highway in each direction)...for no apparent reason, as the car was driving at 70 MPH (speed limit plus 5 MPH)
It repeated this "evasive maneuver" (did the Tesla engineers overdose on Star Trek) three times, including moving to the left lane within 1/4 mile of the right side exit. Needless to say it missed the exit. I'm a new owner and still testing FSD.

I've driven this route (my daily work commute) using FSD every day for the last two weeks (so presumably, the car might be learning).
I know autonomous driving isn't 100% yet, but today's drive was a total failure (actually, not total, since it didn't crash, but you get the point)

Is FSD usually this...unreliable?
 

TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
83
75
L.A.
I know people typically hate to hear this, but you don’t have FSD. You have navigate on autopilot (NoAP). In my own experience (3+ years) I t’s one of the less reliable beta features. So much so that I flipped the switch to require my confirmation before it actually changes lanes. I know it’s improved, but I got too scared when that feature was first released because it would start the turn signal at a most inopportune moment. It kept scaring neighboring cars. When you require confirmation, it will signal on the display screen. You then confirm by either tapping (one step) the turn signal stalk in the correct direction or the right stalk down (TACC). Or you can choose to tap “cancel” on the screen.

As for your example/situation, keep sending bug reports at that section of the road when it makes the mistake. There’s more context we don’t have access to as to why there NoAP keeps switching lanes back and forth.
 

emmz0r

Senior Software Engineer
Jul 12, 2018
1,255
1,025
Norway
It's pretty awful that they seemingly have put all their crew to solve FSD that won't materialize for years, while there's no people working on fixing things that people paid for and use everyday
 
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haroldo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
342
170
NJ
...keep sending bug reports at that section of the road when it makes the mistake
Would love to...how???

That stretch of road has an exit failure. I tells you there's an exit, but no matter whether it's on Navigate on Autopilot, or just regular Autopilot (where I turn on blinker to instruct car to move over...in this case, to take the exit) it never exits.

Where do we send map/navigation bugs?

Thanks!
 

RTPEV

Active Member
Mar 21, 2016
1,017
1,153
Durham, NC
I've driven this route (my daily work commute) using FSD every day for the last two weeks (so presumably, the car might be learning).
No, the "learning" is not on a personalized level. The "learning" is done at the fleet level with new scenarios occasionally uploaded to Tesla to train the neural networks on that then goes out to the entire fleet as a software update. You will not see individual cars learning individualized behavior.

As for your particular situation, one big criticism that I've experienced (and I believe it's pretty widespread) is for Navigate on Autopilot (NoA) to get into the left (passing) lane at right hand exits. In some places it does this almost at every exit and is extremely annoying. What is happening is that the car understands there to be a rightmost exit-only off-ramp (from it's map), but doesn't yet "see" the off-ramp lane yet with its cameras, and the car concludes that it is in the exit-only lane and shifts one lane to the left ("to follow the route", as it calls it). Incredibly annoying and persistent issue. I wouldn't call it "unreliable" in that it doesn't actually affect the navigation, and it will only do this when it's safe to do so (although it may annoy other drivers coming up from behind). I generally anticipate this and am ready to cancel the lane change by flicking the turn signal stalk. If I'm in an area with a lot of exits where this happens I will temporarily unclick the NoA button. But yes, I REALLY wish they would fix this.

Now you did say that "it missed the exit". Are you saying that it missed an exit it had intended to take because of this maneuver? Or are you saying that it missed an exit that YOU had wanted it to take and you had expected the car to "learn" by virtue of the fact that you had been taking that exit for 2 weeks? As I said earlier, the car does not "learn" your preferred route. On my commute, I get off the highway an exit earlier than the car wants to, so I never have NoA enabled for that part of my commute (because it will avoid the exit). I can see this because the car's navigation "blue line" always goes past the exit I take. This will never change (unless traffic conditions figure in otherwise)--sometimes navigation systems choose a different route than our heads do.

Now if in fact the nav system did indicate that it wanted to take that exit and missed it because it was in the wrong lane, well, all I can say is that I've never seen that kind of behavior. Normally the car will get into the right lane between 0.75 and 1 mile ahead of the exit and stay there. The only exception would be if there has been recent construction and the lanes have changed from what the car has in its map.
 

haroldo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
342
170
NJ
Now you did say that "it missed the exit". Are you saying that it missed an exit it had intended to take because of this maneuver?
Using AutoPilot (only)
Car alerts me that there's an exit coming, in 1/4 mile (graphic shows the fork from the drive lane). I put on blinker before the exit lane (it's a 1/4 mile long service road with a pair of cloverleafs for the actual exit). The car never moves over (the blue silhouette never appears).

If I'm using Navigation using AutoPilot.
The car similarly fails to move over. It does slow a little bit as it gets to the cloverleaves, but since the car is on the wrong side of a divider (between the main road and the service road), it doesn't do anything and resumes highway speed.
It knows I need to get off, the painted lines are clearly visible, but the car doesn't know to move to the right.

Not a big deal as it's my daily commute, but wonder whether similar oddities will prevent smooth navigation if I'm in an unfamiliar area.
 

EVRider-FL

Member
Aug 18, 2015
688
391
South Florida
Although Navigate on Autopilot has some quirks, I’ve never experienced the behavior that the OP reported. Even if an exit doesn’t support NoA (though I’ve never encountered one that didn’t), the car should still take the exit but ask you to take over as it does.
 
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EVRider-FL

Member
Aug 18, 2015
688
391
South Florida
An addendum to my previous reply: on road trips I’ve noticed that Auto Lane Change (with or without NoA) won’t work unless the car detects lane markers on both sides of the lane you’re trying to move to. When the target lane is the leftmost or rightmost lane, the car sometimes has trouble with yellow lane markers on the edges of the road, especially under certain lighting conditions. When the car won’t change lanes, check the visualization to see if those lane markers are detected.
 

KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
625
575
Columbus OH
Not every exit is eligible for NOA. In the turn directions, exits that are NOA eligible will display a small autopilot icon next to the exit number
That's news to me. I'd love to know the eligibility criteria here. NOA refuses to take my closest exit to home in both each directions (2 different exits). Both look like every other exit. Never looked for this icon.
 

haroldo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
342
170
NJ
An addendum to my previous reply: on road trips I’ve noticed that Auto Lane Change (with or without NoA) won’t work unless the car detects lane markers on both sides of the lane you’re trying to move to. When the target lane is the leftmost or rightmost lane, the car sometimes has trouble with yellow lane markers on the edges of the road, especially under certain lighting conditions. When the car won’t change lanes, check the visualization to see if those lane markers are detected.
I'll check tomorrow morning (I'll see if I can get the dash cam to show the surroundings and get a screen shot)
 

nicholb

Member
May 2, 2018
185
309
Minnesota
Would love to...how???

That stretch of road has an exit failure. I tells you there's an exit, but no matter whether it's on Navigate on Autopilot, or just regular Autopilot (where I turn on blinker to instruct car to move over...in this case, to take the exit) it never exits.

Where do we send map/navigation bugs?

Thanks!

When something happens, press the voice command button and say "Bug Report" + a few words (without a pause) describing the issue like "navigation switched to the wrong lane".
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,641
6,417
Snohomish, WA
When something happens, press the voice command button and say "Bug Report" + a few words (without a pause) describing the issue like "navigation switched to the wrong lane".
There is no feedback loop on reporting issues this way. In fact we have no idea what percentage of these ever gets fixed.

If Tesla wanted Navigation/Map feedback they'd have an actual interface for reporting issues like every major Maps/Navigation provider. I've personally reported lots of Apple Maps issues and Apple has always fixed them quickly along with letting me know they fixed it.

At this point bug reporting has no better chance of action than tweeting Elon.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,641
6,417
Snohomish, WA
I know people typically hate to hear this, but you don’t have FSD. You have navigate on autopilot (NoAP). In my own experience (3+ years) I t’s one of the less reliable beta features. So much so that I flipped the switch to require my confirmation before it actually changes lanes. I know it’s improved, but I got too scared when that feature was first released because it would start the turn signal at a most inopportune moment. It kept scaring neighboring cars. When you require confirmation, it will signal on the display screen. You then confirm by either tapping (one step) the turn signal stalk in the correct direction or the right stalk down (TACC). Or you can choose to tap “cancel” on the screen.

As for your example/situation, keep sending bug reports at that section of the road when it makes the mistake. There’s more context we don’t have access to as to why there NoAP keeps switching lanes back and forth.

No, that's not correct at all.

NoA is a component of FSD, and has been for quite awhile. Elon himself has claimed that NoA is "super-human" so he thinks its awesome despite how terrible you (and I ) think it is.

The FSD you're likely thinking is of the FSD Beta, but that's limited to city streets. For the freeway it uses NoA because that's FSD Freeway
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
83
75
L.A.
No, that's not correct at all.

NoA is a component of FSD, and has been for quite awhile. Elon himself has claimed that NoA is "super-human" so he thinks its awesome despite how terrible you (and I ) think it is.

The FSD you're likely thinking is of the FSD Beta, but that's limited to city streets. For the freeway it uses NoA because that's FSD Freeway
I’m referring to nomenclature for clarity’s sake. The general public (understandably) already confuses the very limited release FSD beta with AP, NoAP, etc. NoAP is a component of “FSD Capability” package and I don’t think even Tesla considers it “FSD”. As amazing as it is (I still use it all the time minus lane change without confirmation), it can‘t handle a lot of situations and Tesla knows this I’m sure (hence the NoAP icons for each exit/routing step). The current FSD beta appears to switch to the same NoAP the rest of us ”FSD Capability” package people have, but who knows if it’s “as good as it gets” with only minor iterative improvements forthcoming. I’m guessing/hoping no.

There is no feedback loop on reporting issues this way. In fact we have no idea what percentage of these ever gets fixed.

If Tesla wanted Navigation/Map feedback they'd have an actual interface for reporting issues like every major Maps/Navigation provider. I've personally reported lots of Apple Maps issues and Apple has always fixed them quickly along with letting me know they fixed it.

At this point bug reporting has no better chance of action than tweeting Elon.
Yes, these bug reports go out into the unknown ether, but Tesla bothered to add the feedback option at some point so it doesn’t hurt to use it until proven otherwise. Perhaps a placebo effect, but I’ve repeatedly reported many exit ramp issues and have seen at least a few “fixed” (or stated above, the example issue was more generally fixed and so my problem ramps were covered.
 

haroldo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
342
170
NJ
exits that are NOA eligible will display a small autopilot icon next to the exit number
Wow, you have great eyesight! I never would have noticed that had you not mentioned it. It's good that such an important piece of information is so prominently displayed /sarcasm
Seriously, the exits that support NoAP should have a bold blue background, consistent with the other NoAP notifications.
 

EVRider-FL

Member
Aug 18, 2015
688
391
South Florida
Future owner here, can someone describe actually how good the autopilot is? Or is it more of just a talking point? Need an honest opinion.
It depends on which autopilot features you’re asking about. TACC, Autosteer, and Auto Lane Change work pretty well overall and are the most important features for road trips (in my opinion). The standard autopilot includes only TACC and Autosteer, but not Auto Lane Change. Navigate on Autopilot can be useful but is quirky. Summon and Autopark are less useful for most people. For Navigate on Autopilot, Summon, and Autopark, you need FSD (or EAP in older cars).
 
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Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,953
9,868
San Diego
Future owner here, can someone describe actually how good the autopilot is? Or is it more of just a talking point? Need an honest opinion.
Autopilot (Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control) is standard and pretty good if you use them on divided highways.
FSD is a waste of money. Auto lane change is nice on empty roads but not worth $10k.
Opinions differ.
Note that FSD will be available as a subscription soon and may be a better deal that way.
 
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