AutoSteer Techniques?

[kendallpb]

Thanks, @BerTX. I tried it earlier today and I wasn't as heavy-handed as I feared, I guess. I kept it usually to one hand, sometimes lower down and sometimes around middling, and never got the dreaded Thou Shalt Apply Torque Or Lose Autosteer warning. It wasn't a super-long trip, but long enough that I think it worked.

 

[jboy210]

i rarely use AP since i don't do a ton of highway driving, but when i do, i still get nags even when my hands are at 10 & 2 on the wheel (or 4 and 8). i guess i don't death grip the wheel enough for it to notice so the scroll wheel method is an ok alternative to prove your hands are still there without having to apply opposing force to the steering wheel! i agree with you it's unnerving to apply pressure if the wheel in the middle of taking a curve on the highway.

Nothing to do with grip force. Everything to do with turning the wheel a bit.

If you are always using two hands you need to let one hand get a little heavy and turn the wheel a bit from time to time. If you hold it with equal force on both sides of the wheel there is no manual movement of the wheel to one side or the other to sense and it will nag at you.

 

[animorph]

I use one hand on the outside of the wheel, about 7 to 8 o'clock (or 4 to 5), switching as needed. I'm actually used to driving winding mountain roads with two hands at those positions, so it's natural enough for me.

I do have a problem if I switch to a two-handed grip. I have to remember to keep some torque on the wheel, and that doesn't always happen. But I can usually catch the visual warnings before I get beeped at.

 

[kendallpb]

I tried this on a longer drive (well, longer sequence of Autosteer). I got one warning. Another time, I over-compensated and killed Autosteer by accident. Still, I feel like I basically have it. I kinda wish they had other sensors in the steering wheel, though; it's unintuitive that you have to pull a little on something that you're trying NOT to mess with because the car's doing it. ;-)

Anyway, thanks again for the tips, folks!

 

[gnuarm]

Wow! I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find others are having the same issues I do with the auto pilot attention detection method. What I don't find here is any sign of concern that this is not only a poor way to detect if your attention is focused on the road, but that it diverts some portion of your attention away from the road!

I do find the attention detection to be very inaccurate. I read in a news report of a fatal accident that Tesla claimed their software detected the driver's hands were off the wheel for some seconds before the accident. Does anyone believe that claim can actually be made after driving with auto pilot themselves? I sure don't.

On top of inaccurately detecting your attention to the road, I find some portion of my time and attention ends up being devoted to keeping the car convinced I am paying attention. Worse is when I am paying attention to something happening on the road and the car decides to warn me that I am not paying attention which distracts me at the precise time I need to focus!

I've ended up using one hand on the wheel to pull down on that side providing the needed torque which Tesla equates to "paying attention" while holding my other hand under my "steering" arm. This ends up being comfortable but I don't feel it is as safe as it could be with two hands on the wheel... with which I find it hard to provide the needed torque. One handing the wheel also seems to be conducive to my real attention drifting more than if both hands were on the wheel.

Auto pilot has a number of rough edges which I am willing to live with... for a while. But detecting that I am paying attention by sensing an inappropriate and inaccurate torque on the steering wheel is the worst aspect of auto pilot. I'm sure something better can be done. How about it Tesla? What is your plan B for detecting driver attention?

 

[BerTX]

Wow! I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find others are having the same issues I do with the auto pilot attention detection method. What I don't find here is any sign of concern that this is not only a poor way to detect if your attention is focused on the road, but that it diverts some portion of your attention away from the road!

I do find the attention detection to be very inaccurate. I read in a news report of a fatal accident that Tesla claimed their software detected the driver's hands were off the wheel for some seconds before the accident. Does anyone believe that claim can actually be made after driving with auto pilot themselves? I sure don't.

On top of inaccurately detecting your attention to the road, I find some portion of my time and attention ends up being devoted to keeping the car convinced I am paying attention. Worse is when I am paying attention to something happening on the road and the car decides to warn me that I am not paying attention which distracts me at the precise time I need to focus!

I've ended up using one hand on the wheel to pull down on that side providing the needed torque which Tesla equates to "paying attention" while holding my other hand under my "steering" arm. This ends up being comfortable but I don't feel it is as safe as it could be with two hands on the wheel... with which I find it hard to provide the needed torque. One handing the wheel also seems to be conducive to my real attention drifting more than if both hands were on the wheel.

Auto pilot has a number of rough edges which I am willing to live with... for a while. But detecting that I am paying attention by sensing an inappropriate and inaccurate torque on the steering wheel is the worst aspect of auto pilot. I'm sure something better can be done. How about it Tesla? What is your plan B for detecting driver attention?

I don't think anyone here thinks Tesla's method to detect that the driver is paying attention is good -- just that it is tolerable and there are ways to make it a decent compromise. I suspect Tesla thinks they don't need a better system, because their goal is for drivers to not need to have hands on the wheel with FSD. In my opinion, that is a long way off, but sometimes Tesla sees things as they should be rather than reality, which we have to encourage.

As to keeping both hands on the wheel, this should be possible by having different positions on each hand to still create torque on the wheel. I don't feel the need to do that, but if you feel more comfortable that way, try it. I suspect it is more habit than need. For me, when I feel the need to have both hands on the wheel, it is probably indicative of driving conditions where I should not have AS activated.

 

[kendallpb]

@gnuarm: I just used autosteer a lot, going out of town for Turkey Day and kept two hands on the wheel. Not in the normal positions I would use without autosteer, of course! I had one resting firmly/slightly-pulling on one side (on/above the spoke) and the other lightly resting on/holding the bottom of the other side of the steering wheel. I alternated periodically so it didn't get tiring.

I didn't focus much on how much pressure I was putting on, once I got used to having my "steering arm" (as you say, though of course it's not steering) resting in that position, which usually gave enough pressure. I decided a few warnings (I got a few visual ones) were okay, and tried not to overthink it.

Hopefully you can find a better position that works for you. There's no need to keep your off-hand off the wheel, though; just rest it on the bottom and try not to control the wheel with it.

Anyway, yeah, my spouse feels like the detection method bites, and suggested something like the metal contacts treadmills use. IMHO exposed metal on the wheel would be uncomfortable for driving, though. I wonder if some kind of pressure sensor is feasible.

 

[gnuarm]

PS In addition to other sensors in the steering wheel, how about heating it? Just a thought. I was very disappointed to find the steering wheel is not heated.

@gnuarm: I just used autosteer a lot, going out of town for Turkey Day and kept two hands on the wheel. Not in the normal positions I would use without autosteer, of course! I had one resting firmly/slightly-pulling on one side (on/above the spoke) and the other lightly resting on/holding the bottom of the other side of the steering wheel. I alternated periodically so it didn't get tiring.

I didn't focus much on how much pressure I was putting on, once I got used to having my "steering arm" (as you say, though of course it's not steering) resting in that position, which usually gave enough pressure. I decided a few warnings (I got a few visual ones) were okay, and tried not to overthink it.

Hopefully you can find a better position that works for you. There's no need to keep your off-hand off the wheel, though; just rest it on the bottom and try not to control the wheel with it.

Anyway, yeah, my spouse feels like the detection method bites, and suggested something like the metal contacts treadmills use. IMHO exposed metal on the wheel would be uncomfortable for driving, though. I wonder if some kind of pressure sensor is feasible.

I guess my point is having hands on the wheel doesn't really tell you if the driver is paying attention. Everyone in this thread has found a way to put sufficient pressure on the wheel automatically without actually needing to pay attention. That is my point, the method is inaccurate and rather pointless if not counterproductive in terms of attention rather than just having hands in place.

It wouldn't take much metal for your wife's idea. In fact, they could use conductive materials that aren't metal.

I wonder why they don't use a method of monitoring the eyes? Perhaps because people wear sunglasses.

 

[frank-datank]

PS In addition to other sensors in the steering wheel, how about heating it? Just a thought. I was very disappointed to find the steering wheel is not heated.

It is with the sub-zero pkg that is now standard.

 

[gnuarm]

It is with the sub-zero pkg that is now standard.

Yeah, after I made that post I dug around and found that. I should have that since the only option I didn't get was the full self driving mode. I will need to figure out how to turn that on.

 

[frank-datank]

Yeah, after I made that post I dug around and found that. I should have that since the only option I didn't get was the full self driving mode. I will need to figure out how to turn that on.

Not that you couldn't figure this out for yourself, but while I wait for my X to be delivered (T-minus 13-days), I've been a immersing myself is all of the videos, etc. that are out there and just watched all of these yesterday: Discover Software Version 9.0
I've seen a lot of people say the cold weather features are kind of hidden compared to v 8. This will be my first Tesla, so I guess I won't know any different.

Back on topic too, the autosteer conversation is really interesting. I test drove an X for the day prior to ordering, and I think I didn't really have enough time to notice the unnatural nature of the pay attention nudge. From what I've read, this was added after someone had a (fatal?) accident while asleep on autopilot involving a bicyclist. But agree with @BerTX that Tesla likely isn't too worried about a better stop-gap solution here. We'll just need to get used to it until FSD, or something closer to it, is rolled out.

 

[gnuarm]

Not that you couldn't figure this out for yourself, but while I wait for my X to be delivered (T-minus 13-days), I've been a immersing myself is all of the videos, etc. that are out there and just watched all of these yesterday: Discover Software Version 9.0
I've seen a lot of people say the cold weather features are kind of hidden compared to v 8. This will be my first Tesla, so I guess I won't know any different.

Back on topic too, the autosteer conversation is really interesting. I test drove an X for the day prior to ordering, and I think I didn't really have enough time to notice the unnatural nature of the pay attention nudge. From what I've read, this was added after someone had a (fatal?) accident while asleep on autopilot involving a bicyclist. But agree with @BerTX that Tesla likely isn't too worried about a better stop-gap solution here. We'll just need to get used to it until FSD, or something closer to it, is rolled out.

Just my two cents worth, but I believe FSD (Full Self Driving) is quite a ways off if we ever see it in these cars. One of the big issues will concern liability. If you aren't driving and are not expected to be overseeing the car like on auto pilot, then who is responsible for an accident? I don't recall who said it, but one of the big players in self driving cars said it should be the car maker. Once you cross that line I think it is only a matter of time before the entire car ownership model changes and we no longer own cars. Instead cars will become resources more like cabs to take us where we want to go and are then dismissed to serve someone else. I think this may very well result in car ownership dropping, but we will have to wait and see. It will also result in parking lots becoming relics of the car ownership days. It may even result in less congestion on the roads... or more... hard to say.

 

[Peteski]

There's absolutely no question that the current "driver detection" system is badly flawed. It even positively encourages bad habits in terms of how you actually hold the steering wheel! So now we all end up with a one-handed grip or worse still using the wheel as some kind of arm rest! If you actually hold the wheel properly with two hands you do get frequent nags, so that can't be a good solution.

While FSD remains a pipe dream, we need a better solution to driver detection and it would not be that difficult to implement, at least going forward on new cars. A combination of the existing torque sensor, steering wheel touch sensors and perhaps eye detection could be employed in parallel to avoid all this stress and promote the use of a standard 2 handed grip on the wheel. The current system is really just a bodge in response to earlier crashes from those people inevitably abusing the AP system. It's pretty obvious that little effort was put into driver detection at the initial design stage, but it should now become a priority for safety. I'm actually surprised it has been ignored for so long, although I'm sure the Tesla bean counters wouldn't be too thrilled about the prospect of a fleet wide recall to fit additional driver detection sensors.

 

[BerTX]

There's absolutely no question that the current "driver detection" system is badly flawed. It even positively encourages bad habits in terms of how you actually hold the steering wheel! So now we all end up with a one-handed grip or worse still using the wheel as some kind of arm rest! If you actually hold the wheel properly with two hands you do get frequent nags, so that can't be a good solution.

While FSD remains a pipe dream, we need a better solution to driver detection and it would not be that difficult to implement, at least going forward on new cars. A combination of the existing torque sensor, steering wheel touch sensors and perhaps eye detection could be employed in parallel to avoid all this stress and promote the use of a standard 2 handed grip on the wheel. The current system is really just a bodge in response to earlier crashes from those people inevitably abusing the AP system. It's pretty obvious that little effort was put into driver detection at the initial design stage, but it should now become a priority for safety. I'm actually surprised it has been ignored for so long, although I'm sure the Tesla bean counters wouldn't be too thrilled about the prospect of a fleet wide recall to fit additional driver detection sensors.

I'll agree that the system is far from ideal. Driving with one hand on the wheel is not a good driving practice -- but it could be argued that you are NOT driving, you are monitoring and reacting to the Autosteer errors.

As I've said before, if you feel the driving and traffic conditions require both hands on the wheel, then you probably are using Autosteer in a place where you should not.

 

[Peteski]

I'll agree that the system is far from ideal. Driving with one hand on the wheel is not a good driving practice -- but it could be argued that you are NOT driving, you are monitoring and reacting to the Autosteer errors.

As I've said before, if you feel the driving and traffic conditions require both hands on the wheel, then you probably are using Autosteer in a place where you should not.

No, the reason I keep both hands on the wheel is so I can take over manual control at any time safely - as it clearly states I should do in the user manual. But regardless we seem to agree that the driver detection system is flawed in regard to its primary objective.

 

[gnuarm]

I'll agree that the system is far from ideal. Driving with one hand on the wheel is not a good driving practice -- but it could be argued that you are NOT driving, you are monitoring and reacting to the Autosteer errors.

As I've said before, if you feel the driving and traffic conditions require both hands on the wheel, then you probably are using Autosteer in a place where you should not.

Potatoes, potahtoes. If you are responsible, you need both hands on the wheel in the correct positions. I've had the car try to run off the road all on its own. This has nothing to do with how much traffic there is. If I wasn't ready to take control the car would likely have wrecked or I may well have overcorrected and turned into another lane.

BTW, since when did the presence of other cars contraindicate using autopilot?

 

[BerTX]

Potatoes, potahtoes. If you are responsible, you need both hands on the wheel in the correct positions. I've had the car try to run off the road all on its own. This has nothing to do with how much traffic there is. If I wasn't ready to take control the car would likely have wrecked or I may well have overcorrected and turned into another lane.

BTW, since when did the presence of other cars contraindicate using autopilot?

With power steering I don't really feel that both hands really makes much of a difference. Moving the wheel a few inches is plenty to correct for any mistake Autosteer is likely to make, as it doesn't move the wheel more than that. I can do that with one hand. I have no reference, but likely the two hand guideline is a holdover from manual steering and 6 turns necessary on the wheel to make a turn. As I said, I do put both hands on the wheel if I think it's necessary when I'm steering.

Autosteer has it's place IMHO. Stop and go traffic at low speed. Open highway with light to moderate traffic. High speed with traffic, or most undivided roadways, I'm steering. Driving isn't a video game.

 

[gnuarm]

With power steering I don't really feel that both hands really makes much of a difference. Moving the wheel a few inches is plenty to correct for any mistake Autosteer is likely to make, as it doesn't move the wheel more than that. I can do that with one hand. I have no reference, but likely the two hand guideline is a holdover from manual steering and 6 turns necessary on the wheel to make a turn. As I said, I do put both hands on the wheel if I think it's necessary when I'm steering.

Autosteer has it's place IMHO. Stop and go traffic at low speed. Open highway with light to moderate traffic. High speed with traffic, or most undivided roadways, I'm steering. Driving isn't a video game.

I don't think it's about power steering. Maximum control comes from having the proper grip on the wheel in a position that gives you optimum feel and feedback. That's not just me talking. All the professional drivers will tell you this. Two hands at 10 and 2 o'clock, arms out. That's why they put the bulges on the wheel where they do.

I like to use cruise control in traffic, but I prefer to take the autopilot off. I just want to be the one steering if anyone lunges in front of me and I need to steer away. Autopilot works well for me on the highway. I can relax a bit more. But it does some funny things at times, like braking for over passes casting a shadow and today it hit the brakes for an overhead power line! lol

 

[Peteski]

With power steering I don't really feel that both hands really makes much of a difference. Moving the wheel a few inches is plenty to correct for any mistake Autosteer is likely to make, as it doesn't move the wheel more than that. I can do that with one hand. I have no reference, but likely the two hand guideline is a holdover from manual steering and 6 turns necessary on the wheel to make a turn. As I said, I do put both hands on the wheel if I think it's necessary when I'm steering.

Autosteer has it's place IMHO. Stop and go traffic at low speed. Open highway with light to moderate traffic. High speed with traffic, or most undivided roadways, I'm steering. Driving isn't a video game.

I have to disagree with most of this. Two hands gives you far more precise steering control regardless of power assistance levels. One handed driving is just a bad habit people drift into or in this particular case a learned habit because of the issues with two handed detection. I do it myself just to avoid the nags. Either way it's a very poor solution.

I agree that AS is not safe in all driving situations, but I'm comfortable using it in many situations. I'm simply not happy with the fact that a two handed hold on the wheel inevitably leads to false AS nags which is quite irritating. For me that is a primary fail of the system and holding the wheel with one hand or using it as an armrest is not an acceptable solution!

 

[BerTX]

I have to disagree with most of this. Two hands gives you far more precise steering control regardless of power assistance levels. One handed driving is just a bad habit people drift into or in this particular case a learned habit because of the issues with two handed detection. I do it myself just to avoid the nags. Either way it's a very poor solution.

I agree that AS is not safe in all driving situations, but I'm comfortable using it in many situations. I'm simply not happy with the fact that a two handed hold on the wheel inevitably leads to false AS nags which is quite irritating. For me that is a primary fail of the system and holding the wheel with one hand or using it as an armrest is not an acceptable solution!

I agree with most of what you say, but come to a slightly different conclusion. When Autosteer is on, I'm not steering, but monitoring steering. I think one hand is plenty. I see why you disagree.

I have not tried it, but you may be able to accomplish the same thing, getting torque to one side of the wheel, with both hands. The old guideline before airbags was to keep hands at 10 and 2 o'clock. After airbags, that was changed to 9 and 3 o'clock (which I'm sure you do, being the safe driver you are). It seems that if you are trying to get torque to one side of the wheel, by simply changing your hand positions, perhaps you can accomplish this. You might try, say, 10 and 3 o'clock or some variant, with hands resting on slightly different heights on the wheel to create torque to one side.

Be forewarned -- if you come back and say this is uncomfortable, I will discount all of your previous claims of safety as the reason you don't like one hand driving, and know that two hands are just your learned habit and that is the real issue.