AutoX times on UHP All Seasons vs Stickier tires?

[Lindenwood]

I have adjustable MPP Coilovers, F/R camber arms, rear toe arms, and compression rod inserts sitting in my garage that I will install next weekend. I did my first AutoX last weekend, and loved it, so I expect to keep that up as a 6-9 events-per-year past-time. That said, while I have a very competitive spirit, but I will not be actively trying to win.

So, assume I’ll have a decent performance alignment and appropriate tire pressures for race day. Then, assume on a hypothetical AutoX course I could run 60.0s on UHP All-Seasons (I.e. 500TW). Very broadly, how much would UHP Summer tires (I.e 300tw) and DOT track tires (I.e. 200tw) each improve times? Are we talking maybe 2 seconds faster on summers and 4 seconds faster on 200TW tires? Or more like 5 seconds faster and 10 seconds faster, respectively?

We are thinking through various near-future plans (I.e. moving from our house with its 3-car garage to a condo), so I just want to be able to make an informed decision about what I’d be losing compared to either a twice-per-year wheel and tire swap (I.e summers in the summer), or even running all-seasons daily and swapping to 200tw tires for race days.

Thanks!

 

[dsgerbc]

Tirerack runs some cross-category tests that could be useful for you. Here are a couple of examples: 1,2.
A lot will depend on particular tires, but on average I'd expect at least a couple of seconds on a 60s course from a top 200tw tire to a good 300tw tire, and maybe another 1-2 seconds to a good 500tw tire.

 

[Sam1]

grab you a set of 19" wheels and throw a set of these on there. They stick pretty effin good. Only for track use though, they are loud AF on the highway inside a tesla.

4 X New Federal 595RS-RR 245/40ZR19 98W Tires | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 4 X New Federal 595RS-RR 245/40ZR19 98W Tires at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[RacerChris]

If it rains you will be in good shape! Kidding aside, I would say at least a couple of seconds. It will be course dependent but you will lose incrementally on all things that require grip (which Autox is like 60s of exploring the friction circle) - Minus acceleration because this car is so hooked up no matter what it is on. I will also say, I have had really good success when I was running street class with the Goodyear Super Car 3's (they are a max performance summer) that are 220TW I believe.

 

[jackmott]

Serious tires you are talking on the order of seconds, maybe 1, maybe 3 depending. Contrast with many other parts like coilovers, control arms, sway bars, etc where you save on the order of a tenth of a second, or in some cases *costing* you a tenth.

Importance of mods in order of importance:

1. Good Tires
2. negative camber
3. ...
4. driving skill
5....
6....
7. whatever bolt ons

 

[Sam1]

Serious tires you are talking on the order of seconds, maybe 1, maybe 3 depending. Contrast with many other parts like coilovers, control arms, sway bars, etc where you save on the order of a tenth of a second, or in some cases *costing* you a tenth.

Importance of mods in order of importance:

3. ...
5....
6....

I'm in the market for a good set of ellipses, do you have any recommended brands?

 

[jackmott]

I'm in the market for a good set of ellipses, do you have any recommended brands?

I'm looking for a set in carbon fiber

 

[Lindenwood]

Hrmm. Thank you!

Separately, let’s say I stuck with the all-seasons, but went like 18x10.5 with 295s all around. Would that split some of the difference?

@MasterC17

 

[dsgerbc]

Wider tires of the same compound are worth only a few tenths at autox, but will murder your range in daily driving.

 

[tm1v2]

Hrmm. Thank you!

Separately, let’s say I stuck with the all-seasons, but went like 18x10.5 with 295s all around. Would that split some of the difference?

@MasterC17

Squeezing in 295 tires + 10.5" wide wheels on a Model 3 just to run allseasons seems...nonsensical to be honest.

Why not run tires appropriate for the driving? What are you trying to achieve by continuing with allseasons? I echo what others are saying, tire choice is more important than width. Now that you know you like autox, get appropriate tires for it. (No I haven't done autox yet but I faced similar decisions after getting hooked at my first track day.)

 

[Lindenwood]

Thought so!

I’d have no issues storing a second set of wheels and tires in my current extra bay, but we are likely moving soon and are considering downsizing to a nice condo in a more walkable area which may limit that storage flexibility. Of course good tires for each purpose will give the best results, but I am just trying to best understand the strengths and caveats of the options (like if I should plan on renting storage / shop space across town for tinkering…).

(Of note, this is not my only source of information, and far from my first effort to understand road tire performance, but I wanted to make sure I caught any Model3-specific considerations. Thanks for the patience! )

 

[tm1v2]

@Lindenwood If you just want to have fun, and you're not trying to compete at all costs, you don't need separate autox tires. There are - or were - summer tires that would hold up to autox (or track) use, while still being reasonably street friendly.

I can't give any current tire recommendations, been too long, but when I was doing track days I just used Bridgestone RE-11, a 200TW "extreme performance" tire, as my summer tire for street + track and it was really great at both. Very streetable, easy wearing on the street (legit 200TW not a cheater tire), gripped well cold and hot (within summer tire temp range of course), and help up very well to basic track day use too, without being overly sensitive to heat or pressure or such...those tires took everything I could throw at them without issue.

I also managed to find alignment settings that balanced street + track wear for me (lots of street miles, occasional track days). Which again, was certainly not a maximum grip, track-focused alignment...but that wasn't the point for me. I wanted good wear characteristics from my tires + alignment without having to swap things around each track day, and I was able to find it.

IMPORTANT: There is (or was) a HUGE range of "extreme performance" tires. Some are NOT street friendly, at all. Some are basically DOT-legal dry race tires with vestigial tread. You don't want to daily drive on those. And some are sorta street friendly but obnoxiously noisy - you probably don't want those either for daily driving a Tesla. The RE-11 were amazingly well mannered for a tire that held up so well to track use. I don't know what the modern equivalent of that tire is. (RE-71R is NOT it, and is discontinued too now anyways.)

 

[dsgerbc]

Whatever you do, keep this in mind:
In most classes there's usually THE car to have if one wants to be 100% competitive and all others are at a disadvantage. That car can vary over the years, as rules/class composition/tire capabilities changes. So, getting a competitive car every year is pretty costly.

The 3P is almost surely THE car to have in EVX right now, and the time to enjoy the no-handicap PAX is now.

 

[jackmott]

>In most classes there's usually THE car to have if one wants to be 100% competitive and all others are at a disadvantage.

Sometimes that car is THOUGHT to be the car to have them someone whos up and proves them wrong. Or something subtly changes about the solution space and it isn't overnight (track mode update, different venue at nationals, rain!) Fun stuff.

 

[RacerChris]

I would suggest Goodyear Super car 3's...As long as you aren't driving them on snow, you'll be OK and they perform well as an Autox tire. They will still wear out quickly, but nowhere near as quick as a 200tw tire. These are also still competitive (especially locally) in Autox. If I had to go with "one tire for all", that would be my choice (though I really can't because it does snow where I live and that would be sketch!)

 

[dsgerbc]

I would suggest Goodyear Super car 3's...

Yes, plenty of local CAM people with heavy and high-power cars run these. I was thinking about them as well, before deciding to yolo it.
I'd suggest hurrying up though, as plenty of sizes of the Supercars seems to heading toward the 'on backorder' status.

 

[MasterC17]

IMO it's worth having a dedicated set of tires for AutoX for the same reason it's worth having a set of summer tires and winter tires in places with snow; the long-term cost is more or less the same and you're not operating at peak performance 100% of the time with one set of tires. A saying I find comical but mostly factual is that all-season tires are really just no-season tires; they suck at everything.

That being said, there are some decent tires that bridge the gap if you aren't looking to be competitive, but rather fast and fun. The Supercar 3 as previously suggested is pretty good, and the PS4S is an excellent all-around tire that excels in the wet. But, a set of 500TW all-seasons will get beaten up far too quickly, overheat, and be slow, just not worth it in any way to me and pretty quickly you are left needing a replacement set anyway.

So, depending on where you live and the weather conditions you need to contend with will help aid in your decision. If you are driving in sub 30f temperatures or winter conditions you need a set of all-seasons or winter tires. In that case, pick up a nice set of summer tires, the tires I previously mentioned in this post will work well, and here's a great breakdown of a number of options: Ultimate track tire guide | 200tw, 100tw, street-legal track, R-comp

Ultimately, tires is a tricky subject. They are all a compromise in one way or another; there's no perfect tire. But, it sounds to me like your best bet would be one of the Endurance 200's with a fast warmup time.

 

[thesmokingman]

IMO it's worth having a dedicated set of tires for AutoX for the same reason it's worth having a set of summer tires and winter tires in places with snow; the long-term cost is more or less the same and you're not operating at peak performance 100% of the time with one set of tires.

This. I autox'd a CRX back in the day and thank gawd for the hatch as we could fit the slick set in it.

 

[jackmott]

In the current street classes its fine to have a dedicated set of wheels/tires for autox but still drive them to the event. In the hoosier race tire classes that is less viable!

 

[Lindenwood]

Okay I am just about sold .

I keep coming back to 18x9.5s with 265/40R18 (or maybe the 19” analog) though there certainly is a lot of eye candy in the Aftermarket Wheels thread…