Avoiding chunking/tire damage while tracking

[Lunares]

So I learned my lesson from my first track day lesson last year but got to pay the price today. Had to replace both front Sport 4S's in my P3D because the shoulders got ripped apart from autocross, wires showing in multiple places.

So I'm in the process of setting up to use RE71Rs for the track going forwards. is that sufficient or is there something else I should be doing. e.g. letting the car cool down more, one issue with the autocross was they weren't checking groups so we essentially did it continuously for ~3 hours morning and another 3 hours afternoon? or dropping tire pressure, I was probably running something like 45 psi hot (as measured by TPMS after a lap) that day. Do I really need to go all the way to getting some camber adjustment with a suspension change?

Hopefully switching to this "real" track tire will help!

 

[jkfuel]

You need more camber. If you're on street alignment the corners will cord within a day or two of hard track driving. 45 PSI hot is really high too- did it feel greasy/ were you sliding all over the track? I would try to get it up to max 39 PSI.

 

[kbecks13]

Negative camber should help, but not super easy to adjust that without lowering your car or spending money on adjustable arms. 45 PSI hot seems a bit high, especially with AutoX since it really doesn't put that much heat into the tire due to the short laps.

Honestly i think a lot of the chunking that people are experiencing is simpy due to this car being a heavy, powerful beast that puts more load into the tires than almost anything else out there. Most of the reports i've seen are during AutoX usage, which makes sense as the tires are likely starting relatively cold and then getting the absolute piss beat out of them for ~1 minute straight, multiple times over and over.

Your best bet to prolong those specific tires is less aggressive driving (reduced slip angle) and/or trying to get them hot before each lap if you can. The RE71R is definitely going to be a better AutoX tire, but it's loud and harsh for daily driving (sticky = gravel trap) as i've been running them for the last 4 months. It's perfect as a dedicated tire though.

 

[03DSG]

A lot of track tire and brake wear issues relate to track driving experience as well. I ran Toyo RA1’s for 10 years on the same car on the same tracks. At the end I was getting almost twice the track life out of both tires and front pads. Interestingly my times were faster as well and my occasional on track passengers didn’t throw up as much.........

 

[afadeev]

You need more camber.

45 PSI hot seems a bit high, especially with AutoX since it really doesn't put that much heat into the tire due to the short laps.
Honestly i think a lot of the chunking that people are experiencing is simpy due to this car being a heavy

+1 on more negative camber (shop for adjustable camber plates)
+1 on RE71R's, but also going wider than stock 235mm rubber on all four corners. Research how wide you can go, and buy wider wheels to support your track tires.

I've run 285mm RE71R on my track M3 (BMW kind) and with -3.0 degrees upfront got almost perfectly even wear across the treads, all the way down to below the wear bars.

The RE71R is definitely going to be a better AutoX tire, but it's loud and harsh for daily driving (sticky = gravel trap) as i've been running them for the last 4 months. It's perfect as a dedicated tire though.

What size?

HTH,
a

 

[Lunares]

+1 on more negative camber (shop for adjustable camber plates)
+1 on RE71R's, but also going wider than stock 235mm rubber on all four corners. Research how wide you can go, and buy wider wheels to support your track tires.

I've run 285mm RE71R on my track M3 (BMW kind) and with -3.0 degrees upfront got almost perfectly even wear across the treads, all the way down to below the wear bars.




What size?

HTH,
a

I'll be running 265/35/18

unfortunately won't be able to add more camber..yet. P3D has somewhere between 0 and very little by default but it isn't adjustable. At some point will add 3rd party suspension arms to adjust that.

 

[SammichLover]

Honestly i think a lot of the chunking that people are experiencing is simpy due to this car being a heavy, powerful beast that puts more load into the tires than almost anything else out there.

Michelin PS 4S tires were known for this, before the Model 3 came around.

They also need a lot higher than usual PSI because of their design, which includes more flexible sidewalls that rely on tire pressure to maintain shape. They are awesome tires, for example in the rain probably even faster on the track than the RE71R. However they have issues.

OP:

Almost certainly you'll be running a lot lower with the tire pressure once you leave PS4S territory. For example I'm not sure where I'm going to bottom out, as I'd still searching for it, but with the Azenis RT615K 245/40R18 tires I'm using right now for AX I'm down to 35 front/37 rear and I don't think I've found the bottom of where I should go. I definitely don't run above 38 PSI hot (at the start of a run) in the front, as that brings about a lot of plowing in the front.

I started at 38 PSI because that's roughly where they chalked at, coming down from the top.

The RE71R should be somewhat similar, maybe lower.

The higher rear pressure is actually hoping to induce bit of oversteer. Not sure it is enough differential. Still a lot of work ahead to mess around with that.

I've only done one track day and I didn't mess with the pressure, just targeted 38/39 front/rear when hot. Note that's not measured with the TPMS, I cheeped out to save $200 and that's measured with a quality tire gauge (with a bleed button, get one it's a no-brainer $30).

Note that the RT615Ks don't really have an outside shoulder to chunk, due to their shape. The RE71R will probably wear faster on the outside for you, but at least with those you can flip them on the rims mid-life to use the other side of the tires.

EDIT: BTW I'll report back on the RE71Rs when I get a set. Plan to get them early summer as replacements, as my dedicated track/AX set, once I cord the RT615Ks. I won't have as wide as set as the others here, as I'm keeping to factory rim width for SCCA AX classing.

 

[SammichLover]

I'll be running 265/35/18

unfortunately won't be able to add more camber..yet. P3D has somewhere between 0 and very little by default but it isn't adjustable. At some point will add 3rd party suspension arms to adjust that.

Factory spec for camber is about 0.8 or so on the front, around 1.2 on the rear.

 

[afadeev]

I'll be running 265/35/18

unfortunately won't be able to add more camber..yet. P3D has somewhere between 0 and very little by default but it isn't adjustable. At some point will add 3rd party suspension arms to adjust that.

Did you find 18" wheels that fit over P3D brake calipers?
Which ones, and with what offset?

265/35-18 RE71R's need 9-10.5" wide wheels, preferably 9.5", which would be full 1" wider than stock.

a

 

[MasterC17]

Did you find 18" wheels that fit over P3D brake calipers?
Which ones, and with what offset?

265/35-18 RE71R's need 9-10.5" wide wheels, preferably 9.5", which would be full 1" wider than stock.

a

These are the wheels you want: 18x9.5

 

[kbecks13]

I'll be running 265/35/18

265/35/R18 is about 4.5% smaller than stock, which is quite a bit. I'd suggest 265/35/R19 to stay closer to the stock overall diameter.

 

[MasterC17]

265/35/R18 is about 4.5% smaller than stock, which is quite a bit. I'd suggest 265/35/R19 to stay closer to the stock overall diameter.

265/40/R18 or 275/40/R18 would also work

 

[kbecks13]

265/40/R18 or 275/40/R18 would also work

Correct, however i don't believe the RE71R comes in those sizes. I've spent a ton of time on Tirerack and keep going back and forth between wishing i had 18" wheels and 19" wheels (i have 19" currently). Trade-offs in both direction, but 18" let you run some slicks that you can't get at 19" and they are much cheaper!

Compare tire sizes here: Tire Size Comparison

Stock for P3D is 235/35/R20

 

[MasterC17]

Correct, however i don't believe the RE71R comes in those sizes. I've spent a ton of time on Tirerack and keep going back and forth between wishing i had 18" wheels and 19" wheels (i have 19" currently). Trade-offs in both direction, but 18" let you run some slicks that you can't get at 19" and they are much cheaper!

Compare tire sizes here: Tire Size Comparison

Stock for P3D is 235/35/R20

Ah, good point! I like the 18's for the cheaper tires haha!

There are some decent options:

Hankook Ventus RS4: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...4WR8Z232&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Nexen N Fera SUR4G: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...YR8SUR4G&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Yokohama AD08 R: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...D08RXLV2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

 

[kbecks13]

There are some decent options:

This is what i'm running now, it's a new tire from Bridgestone and it's supposed to be 1 step below the RE-71R in terms of grip - but still an extreme performance tire and should be grippier than the stock PS4S. Comes in great sizes at both 18" and 19" and isn't too expensive.

Haven't had a chance to track it yet, but these tires are much quieter in daily use compared to the RE71R

Bridgestone S007A: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+S007A

 

[MasterC17]

This is what i'm running now, it's a new tire from Bridgestone and it's supposed to be 1 step below the RE-71R in terms of grip - but still an extreme performance tire and should be grippier than the stock PS4S. Comes in great sizes at both 18" and 19" and isn't too expensive.

Haven't had a chance to track it yet, but these tires are much quieter in daily use compared to the RE71R

Bridgestone S007A: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+S007A

I'd love to hear your on-track feedback.

One thing I did find is that running the SUR4G's increased my wh/mi consumption by roughly 50% (i.e. it's completely impractical for daily use).

How was your consumption with the RE71R and now the S007A?

 

[kbecks13]

How was your consumption with the RE71R and now the S007A?

Efficiency so far is about the same between the two, still only around 280-300 wh/mile but it really depends on how i drive. I try to keep pressures around 44 cold with both tires for daily driving, the efficiency REALLY falls off a cliff when at lower pressures (i found that out driving back from the track )

 

[MasterC17]

Efficiency so far is about the same between the two, still only around 280-300 wh/mile but it really depends on how i drive. I try to keep pressures around 44 cold with both tires for daily driving, the efficiency REALLY falls off a cliff when at lower pressures (i found that out driving back from the track )

Good to know, I will likely look into something different than the Nexen's when the time comes then.

Either way, I really need to fix the camber, the outer edges are getting chewed up far quicker than I would have expected. I don't know why Tesla didn't give us a wider range of adjustment on the camber.

 

[kbecks13]

Either way, I really need to fix the camber, the outer edges are getting chewed up far quicker than I would have expected. I don't know why Tesla didn't give us a wider range of adjustment on the camber.

Unplugged has some sweet control arms to help with that, i have the prototype set and aligning them was pretty straightforward. It lets you adjust camber and caster as the car comes with slightly uneven caster from the factory (road crown reasons).

They aren't quite for sale just yet, but i'm sure they are coming soon and you could email UP to get them early.

Unplugged Performance Adjustable Front Upper Control Arms for Model 3

 

[Lunares]

Did you find 18" wheels that fit over P3D brake calipers?
Which ones, and with what offset?

265/35-18 RE71R's need 9-10.5" wide wheels, preferably 9.5", which would be full 1" wider than stock.

a

I went with custom 18x9.5, 34 offset from signature. plenty of clearance

About 19 lbs each