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AWD is the best-everything else is obsolete

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
Of course there are winding roads in England, and contrary to popular myth it doesn't rain every day!

Yes not everyday, only about 45% of the days in the year have some precipitation. http://www.london.climatemps.com/precipitation.php Go up to Glasgow and it's only 55%.

"only"

It's only 35% where I am, and high powered RWD cars are just a pain on a wet day, in the bends or not.


Along with "character and depth" comes obsolescence. But hey, wearing mechanical watches with 18th century technology is still a thing. So like I said, whatever floats your boat.
 

smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
It's only 35% where I am, and high powered RWD cars are just a pain on a wet day, in the bends or not.


Along with "character and depth" comes obsolescence. But hey, wearing mechanical watches with 18th century technology is still a thing. So like I said, whatever floats your boat.

So my RWD Tesla is obsolete, and not suitable for use in the rain ? Are you suggesting I ask for a refund as it's clearly not fit for purpose :rolleyes: I've driven mine in snow and ice, rain and shine, and it's just worked.

Drink up the AWD KoolAid sold to you by Audi, then rehashed by Elon because he's missed the deadline on the X.

Quite simply the steering on the Model S is numb and uninvolving, it can't go round a track, and apart from being blistering 0-60 is a one trick pony as a performance car. It makes a fantastic daily driver for sure. But it can't hide it's original design intent, a big comfortable exec cruiser, and if you must have AWD then the S85D is probably the pick of the range.

So I'm sorry I agree with AM, ludicrous is a poor fit for the character of the car.
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
So my RWD Tesla is obsolete, and not suitable for use in the rain ? Are you suggesting I ask for a refund as it's clearly not fit for purpose :rolleyes: I've driven mine in snow and ice, rain and shine, and it's just worked.

Having 4 wheels on a car and only 2 have them having power is obsolete. You can like it if you want, it doesn't make it not obsolete.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,279
153
Nevada
Having 4 wheels on a car and only 2 have them having power is obsolete. You can like it if you want, it doesn't make it not obsolete.

So the 100+ million cars in the U.S. That are front or rear wheel drive are obsolete? Got it.
 

smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
So the 100+ million cars in the U.S. That are front or rear wheel drive are obsolete? Got it.

Look on the plus side, if 2WD cars were banned, the roads would be full of Hummers and Escalades :rolleyes:

The only reason Tesla went AWD this early in the S is to get traction for 0-60 times.

Anyone remember this?

 
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AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
Look on the plus side, if 2WD cars were banned, the roads would be full of Hummers and Escalades :rolleyes:

The only reason Tesla went AWD this early in the S is to get traction for 0-60 times.

Anyone remember this?



So... slow.....





0-60 what?
 
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smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
0-60 what?

And 60-0 takes longer because it's heavier!!! :rolleyes:

All wheel drive does nothing to help slowing down, only speeding up. If the car is struggling for traction accelerating, then really you should be thinking about what you are doing because you are going to have to stop at some point. (Even before Mr McRae's unfortunate death he had a nickname. Colin McCrash, maybe that's what you want from a car, not me.)

Meanwhile you are carrying around the equivalent of a passenger everywhere you go. Yes you might make that penalty back if you are mainly doing constant highway stuff due to the different gearing in the front motor, but for many we are doing the majority of miles on primarily city routes, and the D doesn't make back that penalty. (From Tesla's own EPA numbers!)

Irrespective of it being an EV that efficiency is important. Energy has to come from somewhere, and it isn't all solar/hydro/wind!

So are you seriously saying that Tesla should only sell AWD, because in your view 2WD is obsolete?
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
And 60-0 takes longer because it's heavier!!! :rolleyes:

All wheel drive does nothing to help slowing down, only speeding up. If the car is struggling for traction accelerating, then really you should be thinking about what you are doing because you are going to have to stop at some point. (Even before Mr McRae's unfortunate death he had a nickname. Colin McCrash, maybe that's what you want from a car, not me.)

Meanwhile you are carrying around the equivalent of a passenger everywhere you go. Yes you might make that penalty back if you are mainly doing constant highway stuff due to the different gearing in the front motor, but for many we are doing the majority of miles on primarily city routes, and the D doesn't make back that penalty. (From Tesla's own EPA numbers!)
In my country, the average person could make up for that extra weight simply by going on a diet.

Also, the Model S probably has the lightest AWD system that actually works, the 85D only weights 177 lbs more than it's RWD counterpart.

You might as well argue next to take all the crash protection out of the car. We could save a few passengers worth of weight, and still meet minimum crash standards.

Irrespective of it being an EV that efficiency is important. Energy has to come from somewhere, and it isn't all solar/hydro/wind!
85D is clearly more efficient than the 85.

So are you seriously saying that Tesla should only sell AWD, because in your view 2WD is obsolete?
Yes. I think it's only still an option to let people that live in climates like southern California save a few bucks. But the 85D is superior in every way to the 85 or the P85.
 
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smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
85D is clearly more efficiency than the 85.

As I said the 85 is more efficient by Tesla's own numbers in city traffic, and testers on her have found the results inconclusive over all. And the P85D is the least efficient car Tesla have ever made.
Tesla Launches Model S 70D
(The 60 and 70 even more so)

I am not disagreeing with you that the S85D is a better car than the old P85. The old P85 had far too much power for it's tires in the damp IMHO, it wasn't pleasant to drive in the wet, and the throttle response was artificially sharp (presumably so you could subconsciously feel where your money had gone over the S85, which was much more suited to the range optimized tires necessitated by being an EV)

But to say the S85 is obsolete, is frankly wrong. It's about use case. If you use it mainly in the city, then it is a perfectly capable and competent car, as well as being the best for the planet (after the S70)
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
As I said the 85 is more efficient by Tesla's own numbers in city traffic
Uhhh, no? Driving Range for the Model S Family | Tesla Motors

(The 60 and 70 even more so)
Are we just making stuff up now? 70D gets 10 miles more range than 70 on the same charge.

But to say the S85 is obsolete, is frankly wrong. It's about use case. If you use it mainly in the city, then it is a perfectly capable and competent car, as well as being the best for the planet (after the S70)

You need to check your data. Sounds like you're applying ICE powertrain analogies to an EV.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,397
3,370
Phoenix, AZ
We should bear in mind the ones upset are early adopters, and previously massive advocates. This questionnaire went out just before the P90D was announced (i.e. pre L) , so now the surveyed P85D owners are no longer in a "Halo" car, I bet a few of them are a more than a little annoyed about this and would answer differently.

People complaining because of Tesla's rapid innovation is not a valid complaint in my book, so I suppose I'm glad it didn't factor into the results.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,397
3,370
Phoenix, AZ
Having 4 wheels on a car and only 2 have them having power is obsolete. You can like it if you want, it doesn't make it not obsolete.

Reading that along with your screen name, I have concluded you may be suffering from a disproportionately high amount of cognitive dissonance.

- - - Updated - - -

In my country, the average person could make up for that extra weight simply by going on a diet.

Speak for yourself.

You might as well argue next to take all the crash protection out of the car. We could save a few passengers worth of weight, and still meet minimum crash standards.

No, because removing AWD does not remove an essential, life-saving safety feature mandated by federal law.

85D is clearly more efficient than the 85.

The 60 is more efficient than the 85 as well, but that doesn't make the 60 a superior car. A cat can have kittens in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits!

Many have complained of the additional motor noise in the 85D and P85D, as well as a change to the steering feel due to the front motor. Additional mechanical and software complexities of the dual drive train have also caused problems for folks, including immobilization of the vehicle and shuddering at low speeds. Never had those problems with my RWD, which by the way, performs expertly in heavy monsoon rains.
 

smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
People complaining because of Tesla's rapid innovation is not a valid complaint in my book, so I suppose I'm glad it didn't factor into the results.
So I imagined all the complaints about AP hardware release, where at the drop of a hat some people got cars that were worth 3% less on the valuation formula than
cars delivered the next week?

Innovation is great, and I love how Tesla are doing on this front. However the release strategy is far from perfect, and can lead to resentment if you are just the wrong side of a "product drop". Traditionally this would have been smoothed with run out discounts. However Tesla just make you take the hit.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,397
3,370
Phoenix, AZ
So I imagined all the complaints about AP hardware release, where at the drop of a hat some people got cars that were worth 3% less on the valuation formula than
cars delivered the next week?

Not sure what that has to do with the CR's rating of the P85D?

Innovation is great, and I love how Tesla are doing on this front. However the release strategy is far from perfect, and can lead to resentment if you are just the wrong side of a "product drop". Traditionally this would have been smoothed with run out discounts. However Tesla just make you take the hit.

While I don't see that changing, none of this discounts the fact that P85D owners - largely across the board - are completely blown away by their car. The few threads of discontent and a letter signed by 70-80 owner members of TMC is literally noise compared to the total ownership pool. I would love for Tesla to take good care of its early adopters, but let's be honest - Tesla's future does not really depend on them at this point.
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,266
3,960
NE
Reading that along with your screen name, I have concluded you may be suffering from a disproportionately high amount of cognitive dissonance.
Where cognitive dissonance means accurately predicting the future? I see.

Speak for yourself.
If I lost a persons worth of weight I would be dead, I assure you.

No, because removing AWD does not remove an essential, life-saving safety feature mandated by federal law.
We could add another hundred pounds of "life saving" equipment if we dumped a half shaft, differential, and drive hub. One wheel drive! super safe...

The 60 is more efficient than the 85 as well, but that doesn't make the 60 a superior car. A cat can have kittens in the oven but that don't make 'em biscuits!
I don't even know what straw man you've tried to create. My argument was never about efficiency, it is however not a downside like it is in every other car.

Many have complained of the additional motor noise in the 85D and P85D, as well as a change to the steering feel due to the front motor. Additional mechanical and software complexities of the dual drive train have also caused problems for folks, including immobilization of the vehicle and shuddering at low speeds. Never had those problems with my RWD, which by the way, performs expertly in heavy monsoon rains.
Ok, now we're down to anecdotes over hard published data. 85D is faster, more efficient, and has more traction than the 85 in any circumstance.
 

smac

Active Member
Aug 4, 2013
1,745
837
Nottinghamshire
Not sure what that has to do with the CR's rating of the P85D?
just an example for the subsequent point really ;)

While I don't see that changing, none of this discounts the fact that P85D owners - largely across the board - are completely blown away by their car. The few threads of discontent and a letter signed by 70-80 owner members of TMC is literally noise compared to the total ownership pool. I would love for Tesla to take good care of its early adopters, but let's be honest - Tesla's future does not really depend on them at this point.

The cars are great, and Tesla deserve all the praise they get on the product. However I'm still not sure it's true they don't need to look after their early adopters. (Especially outside the US).

I for one won't buy another new one, I'm jaded and won't take the risk. If asked about my car by friends or family, I recommend they don't either. I'm not an investor, and I don't view Tesla as a charity. So I say sure buy an inventory car, or be aware it's a gamble. (Bear in mind every P85D delivered into the UK was already out of date because of the P90D and all were at least 4 months late :( )

So maybe my views are skewed by my location ;)
 

jaguar36

Active Member
Apr 10, 2014
2,069
1,570
NJ
This really seems like just a troll thread...

However to me AWD takes an extra 177lbs, costs $5k and a big ole chunk of frunk space and it doesn't get you anything substantial. RWD has plenty of traction for me, even in the snow.

AWD is just a marketing tool thats been used by Subaru and Audi.
 

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