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AWD MPG’s MPe range

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Adeon, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. Adeon

    Adeon Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    Does anybody with an all wheel drive know what the Miles per charge is?

    Anyone had the chance to test it in comparison to the RWD
     
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  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    Going by EPA (which will over-estimate the difference between the cars in actual highway driving)

    LR MPGe: 123
    AWD MPGe: 112

    So about 10%.
    I'm willing to bet the difference is at most half that amount in reasonably open road driving.

    If not clear ... the charge rate is the same, so the difference is fuel economy.
     
  3. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

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    This driver recently did a 194 miles at roughly 75 mph and got 224 Wh/mile using autopilot on his RWD. The EPA tested value is 260 Wh/mile (combined) for RWD and 290 Wh/mile for the AWD. Check his comments for more details. 224 Wh correlates to 150 MPGe. Autopilot probably helps a lot in terms of efficiency since its more consistent.

    I don't know how the real AWD will handle at those conditions, but the tested combined version as mention above was 10%. The real world may be much less if Tesla optimizes the AWD motors to be more efficient at long distance cruising speeds but at best I suspect it would be the same, at worst, 10% worse.
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    The EPA value includes charging losses of ~ 12.5%
    224/0.875 = 256

    I don't think the EPA differences have anything to do with the motors. The AWD version weighs about 10% more and the EPA test has a fair amount of decelerations, even in the "highway" cycle.
     
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  5. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

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    That actually makes a lot of sense and has been a variable I've been missing a lot when I was calculating my own spark efficiency.
     
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    Here is the EPA highway cycle:

    Screen Shot 2018-07-26 at 7.26.02 PM.jpg

    Every deceleration, ~ 50% of KE in the speed difference is lost as heat in the regen system.
    If a person's highway driving does not have this pattern (or worse), the range difference per EPA is not going to be present.
     
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  7. ℬête Noire

    ℬête Noire Active Member

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    Yeah, that's what gives me hope that the "real world" long haul highway range is only going to be a lot closer to only 3% lower for the P and D compared to the RWD. The more you mix in lower speed, stop & go driving the more the difference will increase towards that 9-ish% gap.

    It's the long haul highway range that really interests me so I'm feeling pretty good about the trade-off for my uses.
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    That reminds me, what range (or Wh/mile) do you get in the Bolt at 75 mph ?
     
  9. SteveG3

    SteveG3 Active Member

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    Thanks for posting the graph and explaining this.

    This looks like it can really help my purchase decision, but, before I configure, I'm just going to ask in an "explain like I'm 5 way" if I understand your post correctly- for periods of driving at a constant highway speed, the RWD and AWD versions of the car will have virtually the same range, correct?
     
  10. Adeon

    Adeon Member

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    Thanks for the help everyone. If all goes well I’m getting the awd this weekend. Scheduled delivery is set for this Sunday. Il report back what I get on mileage
     
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  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    #11 SageBrush, Jul 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    I expect them to be close. As a guess ... within 10 miles total range difference. The difference in mass will add a ~ 150*9.8*9 Joules/km - 3.675 Wh/km penalty to the AWD car via rolling resistance. Say about 2.5% penalty.

    FYI, the speed does not have to be constant. Slowing down by coasting would not carry a penalty.

    Will you be driving on roads without Superchargers ? You can add about 7-8 miles a minute at a Supercharger, which to my mind make these range estimates an intellectual exercise if quick charging is available.
     
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  12. Zoomit

    Zoomit Member

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    Right at 300 Wh/mi with well controlled testing. 297 to be more precise if it matters.
     
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  13. SteveG3

    SteveG3 Active Member

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    Thanks for giving me a more detailed picture, including the bit about how slowing down by coasting does not come with a penalty either.

    I will be on roads with Superchargers... I agree 10 miles won't make any real difference in my experience, so, good news from you guys in this thread : ). Had been somewhat torn between RWD and AWD if it came to 30 miles, at times when other factors, like winter temps and winds here on the east coast, will cut down a good bit on range.

    (fwiw, I was thinking in the real world, if AWD was 10% less range, that might have meant circumstances like staying at a Supercharger for the AWD car to charge to 90% vs. being ready to leave when the RWD hit 80% charged to let me comfortably make some particular near 200 mile stretches on a drive I do regularly... a drive which includes the DC/Baltimore area, where there can often be real narrow windows of time to avoid heavy traffic).
     
  14. ℬête Noire

    ℬête Noire Active Member

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    #14 ℬête Noire, Jul 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    "No".

    ;)

    The wife drives a bit faster but I nearly always cap my speed at 61MPH which is gives +/-250Wh/mi in optimal conditions (so pretty much dead on nominal EPA range for the full battery). A/C knocks maybe 6-8% off that (why I've got 3M Crystaline tint, helps a lot) unless my wife's in the car then it's 10%, modest cabin heater use will take maybe 12% off.

    The cliff past that speed is brutally steep, I've driven at those speed so little, and when I did I was more focused the thing that was the reason that I was traveling faster, that I won't even hazard a guess what the number is.

    P.S. My overall number in combined Houston "winter" was about 3.8mi/kWh (how it likes to report), summer number is running at 4.3mi/kWh. So 4.0mi/kWh, 250Wh/mi, is a solid all around number. The 238mi EPA range is about as good as it gets for realistic estimate. I've not tested the wall-to-battery leg myself but there's been some rigorous 3rd party measurement of that and as long as the ambient is below about 75F the AC 240V is about 87% efficient, it drops on a ramp past that temp and IIRC drops a couple points if ambient gets up into the high 80's.
     
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  15. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

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    I must be a very conservative driver or my Spark EVis a much more efficient vehicle. Its rated for 4.4 mi/kWh but I typically get 5 mi/kwh roundtrip (uphill and down).

    Heres a drive to work @ 6.4 mi/kwh although I've hit 7.1.

    I'm interested to see how efficient the Model 3 will be with my habits since it has a higher MPGe rating than my Spark.
     

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  16. ℬête Noire

    ℬête Noire Active Member

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    Speed is a major factor. The "super miler" folks have the Model 3 up over 600mi total range, which is about 8 mi/kWh, by driving 25mph, although Model 3's very low Cd air drag means it's range is more resilient in the face of higher speeds.
     
  17. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

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    I absolutely understand that. I've been on and off hypermiling for about 12 years now (ever since I discovered Wayne Gerdes) and I've gotten some pretty crazy numbers but never for long durations.
     
  18. Adeon

    Adeon Member

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    Got the car this Sunday, everything went smooth. I am installing the 220/240v this week and should be able to test the range to a comfortable 15/90; afterwards going for 15/100.

    Ps.. Car is awesome.
     
  19. Jedi2155

    Jedi2155 Model 3 has Arrived.

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    Please report back on your efficiency! Like what the efficiency is at various speeds in kwh/mile would be most interesting. Or what it us on your daily commute etc.
     
  20. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    I won't be able to choose AWD or RWD without a proper side-to-side controlled test. Because that 10% efficiency difference is bonkers. The weight difference is only ~6%, so HWFET should only have a ~3% difference from that. Leaving 7% to be accounted for elsewhere.

    A) Broken torque sleep? Tesla says it has torque sleep, but those numbers suggest they may be wrong

    B) Tested with non-aero wheels? The EPA wants options with a greater-than-60% take rate to be configured, so perhaps

    C) Massive (~7%) drivetrain losses? Sure hope the heck not. If so, why on earth didn't they include locking hubs so that you can freewheel when you don't need AWD?
     

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