I really wonder if the whole "3-5 months" is a bit of a ploy to get folks to order immediately so they don't "miss out" on delivery this year. I mean surely some of those orders are going to be filled a lot sooner. It's not like they are hand building these things in a tent...oh..er...um...never mind.
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AWD Open for existing invitees
- Thread starter sailr
- Start date
Do you mean specifically for RWD?
I had expected that they'd keep cranking out RWD's at full pace over the coming weeks while ramping up AWD-P's (and then AWD's) more gradually. But if that were true, RWD delivery estimates wouldn't change that much. But, hey, it's Tesla... so who the hell knows.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I'm continually baffled by this thinking...
When you brake, you're generally not ALSO accelerating.
Which means how quick the car is has nothing whatsoever to do with needing "upgraded brakes"
A model 3 that gets to 60 in 3.5 and a model 3 that gets there in 5.6, are both stopping a roughly similar car from the roughly similar same speed... just one of them got the part where they move their foot from one pedal to the other sooner.
And of course outside of a race track, "bigger brakes" do nothing useful at all, so there's no 'safety' issue in street use.
The brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.
But who says I am going to stop accelerating at 60 miles. When the other car gets to 60mph I am going to be going idk 80-90. People take cars to streets roads like the Tail of the Dragon a hour from where I am located. Do you think I am not going to kill my brakes on that road? One word heat...
The BMW M3 doesn't come with the same brakes as a 3 series BMW because it is a performance car. I expect the same the Model 3 performance version. The performance version is more powerful car and needs more braking capacity that's what I am trying to say. The same goes for the suspension.
I noticed that the FSD upgrade price went up on my Model S . Darn. I was really thinking they would give a heads-up before changing the price.
Elon did hint at the price increase a few months back.
r/teslamotors - Full Self-Driving Pricing. Elon Forecasts Price Could Increase
Yes but many were expecting a deadline date like we've gotten in the past with other price increases or changes.
It’s hit or miss. Sometimes they set a deadline (e.g. unlimited supercharging), sometimes they don’t (e.g. battery and various other option changes).
whitex
Well-Known Member
If it's like the Model S, it's just a different color - red instead of black. Long time ago the Performance S had the option of removing the red calipers for free (no $2K credit even though non-P cars would pay that for red calipers). I made sure they are the very same calipers other than color before ordering with red calipers removed.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Tesla needs to be profitable ASAP. This means they will prioritize manufacturing of cars with highest profit margin. Take your own guess which ones those would be. Same reason as standard battery being last on the priority list.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Ok.
And when you finally do switch to the brake- it'll work exactly like it does on a slower car. So the fact yours is quicker to get to 80-90 makes literally no difference
I live in NC, and I've owned a number of Supras, so I'm pretty familiar with tail of the dragon... a few thoughts on that-
1) Again, how quick to accelerate the car is makes no difference when it's time to brake. If you're going to be making repeated stops back to back to back from any decent speed you need more heat capacity regardless of if it took you 8 seconds or 10 to get to that speed.
2) The % of owners of nearly any vehicle who actually (aggressively) drive what is essentially a track course outside of a track is....low... but again even for them they'd have exactly the same braking needs regardless of the cars power- once your foot is off the accelerator the car doesn't care how quick it is.
3) When I did a 24 hour test drive of an S a couple months back the guy who I worked with at Tesla had recently driven a first production RWD model 3 there the previous weekend (and has previously done it with an X)... and both times had a great experience and didn't "kill" the stock brakes.
You keep saying it, but for 99% of real world use it continues to not make any actual sense because of physics.
Most M3 owners don't track their car either- and outside of the chase scene in a Bourne film that's about the only time bigger brakes do anything for a car. The car being "more powerful" doesn't change that.
A better suspension is useful all the time including in normal street use- so it's not really the same at all.
In said normal street use on the other hand a 500hp car with stock brakes and the same car with stock brakes and only 200hp will both stop in exactly the same distance. The fact it has a lot more power doesn't matter. At all.
Again- the brakes don't stop the car- the tires do. If you want to stop better in normal use upgrade tires, not brakes.
(which is why I'm sad there's no option to get the Pilot Sport 4S on the 18s)
Well I have owned a 700whp WRX, a Lexus IS-F and 2005 Mitsubishi EVO. I tracked my car Road Atlanta and Atlanta Motorsport Park.
What you say about acceleration makes sense but that's not what I am trying to say. The Model 3 Performance accelerates quicker therefore it is faster and needs better stopping power than the base versions. It is being sold as a performance car....
You keep saying that tires is the only factor on braking time and that's not entirely true. Remember what happen to the Model 3 and Consumer Reports? didn't they improve breaking distance by 10ft by changing the ABS modulation. I don't think they changed the tires... right?
There is no way of knowing that the current brakes are the best they can be. This car is going to be quicker than a BMW M3 while weighting 100-200 lbs more than the Model LR RWD version and 500-600lbs more than the BMW M3. The base performance version needs better brakes, suspension and tires than the LR version period.
Here is some way on improving stopping power other than changing tires.
Engineering Explained: Brake Systems And How To Improve Stopping Performance
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Elon said you won't notice the difference in the brakes unless you're on a track. The standard ones are more than powerful enough to lock up the wheels. Therefore, brake performance in an emergency is going to be a direct result of the ABS configuration and the quality of the tires.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
I prioritize things all the time while continuing to breath. Because otherwise Imma goin' to die.
Manufacturing limited numbers of P & D while leaving already functioning LR production capacity slack isn't the road to good margins because of all that capital investment sitting there idle.
That presumes that there's no risk of supply chain, manufacturing, or quality problems associated with going from zero to maximum AWD production practically overnight.
Idk if I believe Tesla would do that.
Stellavator
Member
You know why divorce is expensive?You know what they say about how much divorce lawyers cost...
Because it's worth it!
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Your original remark was a quicker car needs better brakes "for safety"
Which simply isn't true.
How fast the car is is utterly irrelevant to normal street braking.
Track-specific needs can be impacted by braking systems certainly- but that's not a car safety feature- that's a track performance feature.
Braking distance, not time.
And it is true, if the rest of the car is working correctly.
Right- their software had a bad algorithm so the ABS wasn't working properly under some conditions.
That has nothing to do with physically bigger brakes though- which is what you're asking for.
Take a bone stock factory car with properly working brakes, put a $10,000 big brake upgrade on it, change nothing else.
Now take it up to highway speed and slam on the brakes.
The upgraded car will stop in exactly the same distance it did with the stock brakes (possibly worse if the BBK isn't well designed and confuses the ABS computer).
It won't ever stop shorter, because physics tells us that's impossible.
(see also Porsche- where you can literally buy a $10,000 brake upgrade that doesn't reduce stopping distance in normal street use.)
Sure there is.
Does it engage ABS?
If yes, then MOAR BRAKES does literally nothing for you in normal use.
again- that's how physics actually works.
The brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.
Here is some way on improving stopping power other than changing tires.
Engineering Explained: Brake Systems And How To Improve Stopping Performance
I watched your video. The guy doing it makes the same point I did.
Stock brakes can already lock the wheels, "more force" doesn't help when that's true.
He does talk about how in some conditions changing brake parts can impact the wear on the system... and can impact the feel of the system. That's certainly true.
What it can't do is ever make you stop any shorter than the stock brakes did the first time.
I strongly suggest this article for folks to understand what each part of the brake system actually does, and does not do, and why the only way to reliably reduce braking distance is better tires.
GRM Pulp Friction
The author has designed brake systems for major OEMs and aftermarket companies, teaches SAE master classes on brake system design, and has literally written books on brake engineering.
tl;dr-
In normal street use bigger brakes literally don't you stop any shorter at all. They physically can't.
In track use/abuse bigger brakes (if designed right) can reduce fade resistance, customize brake feel, change wear characteristics....all potentially important things... but they still won't enable to car to ever stop shorter than the stock brakes could on the first stop. You'd need better tires for that.
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High Resolution Pics of Red/White Performance
Wheels
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Interior
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
3 quarter
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Side (not functional yet)
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Wheels
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Interior
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
3 quarter
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Side (not functional yet)
https://static-assets.tesla.com/v1/...SLR1,MT304&bkba_opt=1&context=design_studio_2
Possible additional evidence that the 20" Sport Wheels on Model 3 P are staggered:
The option code for the original (square) 20" Sport Wheels is W32B. Code for the 19" Sport Wheels is W39B. 18" Aero Wheels is W38B. The code for the Model 3 P 20" Sport Wheels is W32P. W32B and W32P still could be the same wheel as Tesla sometimes uses multiple codes for the same option, but the "P" seems to be special.
The option code for the original (square) 20" Sport Wheels is W32B. Code for the 19" Sport Wheels is W39B. 18" Aero Wheels is W38B. The code for the Model 3 P 20" Sport Wheels is W32P. W32B and W32P still could be the same wheel as Tesla sometimes uses multiple codes for the same option, but the "P" seems to be special.
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