What is the point of not connecting to WiFi ever again? Updates come over LTE too...
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Back to square one!!!
- Thread starter autarch
- Start date
What is the point of not connecting to WiFi ever again? Updates come over LTE too...
Tam
Well-Known Member
1) Choice:
Customers should have a choice.
Microsoft had a good intention to force upgrading everyone to Windows 10 and it had to stop that practice because of a lawsuit.
It is true that unlike Microsoft, Tesla owners are not forced to upgrade and some are lucky because they can wait and see feedbacks from other users but most are not on a forum and they have no idea what exactly what a new upgrade will do to them until it's too late.
2) Legality:
When a feature is degraded (user interface restriction to Model 3 level: Map must be the background instead of switchable to top or bottom any way you want), there should be a justification.
When I bought my car, the manual clearly shows that I could mix and match any 2 apps I way I want:
I understand if the upgrade is to give more choices, from a mix and match of any 2 apps like the manual shows above to 3 or even 4 apps.
But it seems not to be legal to downgrade it to a Model 3 user interface restriction at all!
Would that be ok if there's a coat hook in Model 3 and I bring the car to a Service Center for an annual inspection and Tesla decides to glue it shut so it can't be used anymore?
The reason? To "upgrade" it to Model S and X level that do not have a coat hook and make the service more uniform save resources and save money!
Not a good reason at all! And not legally acceptable at all!
Customers should have a choice.
Microsoft had a good intention to force upgrading everyone to Windows 10 and it had to stop that practice because of a lawsuit.
It is true that unlike Microsoft, Tesla owners are not forced to upgrade and some are lucky because they can wait and see feedbacks from other users but most are not on a forum and they have no idea what exactly what a new upgrade will do to them until it's too late.
2) Legality:
When a feature is degraded (user interface restriction to Model 3 level: Map must be the background instead of switchable to top or bottom any way you want), there should be a justification.
When I bought my car, the manual clearly shows that I could mix and match any 2 apps I way I want:
I understand if the upgrade is to give more choices, from a mix and match of any 2 apps like the manual shows above to 3 or even 4 apps.
But it seems not to be legal to downgrade it to a Model 3 user interface restriction at all!
Would that be ok if there's a coat hook in Model 3 and I bring the car to a Service Center for an annual inspection and Tesla decides to glue it shut so it can't be used anymore?
The reason? To "upgrade" it to Model S and X level that do not have a coat hook and make the service more uniform save resources and save money!
Not a good reason at all! And not legally acceptable at all!
I think people are highly confused here. The original point to my post is that Tesla offered to downgrade my vehicle, after I presented the executive resolutions team with enough evidence that it WAS in fact possible. I was told they just needed to schedule. From their e-mail
"Thank you for your message and sorry for the late reply.
I am now working with your local service center. You will hear from use soon. " (sic)
That was over 2 weeks ago and this was after a month of back and forths where I proved to them that it COULD be downgraded because I showed them customers who had to downgrade due to problems created by V9. Further I had written statements from the dealership and service center saying that they COULD be downgraded for safety and technical issues.
Once we got beyond the "we can't downgrade firmware" nonsense, it was just a matter of getting it scheduled.
After not hearing for 2 weeks, I sent a friendly followup asking when it could be scheduled, only to be sent right back to the very first thing stating it "can't" be done and I start the process over again and will have to loop back in the manager, the service center, etc.
As for the comparison to phones and computers.. not sure what point people are trying to make. I have NEVER had an upgrade done to any of those that I couldn't reverse and I have. I upgraded to Windows 10 at my office and then reverted back to 8.1. My home computer I kept windows 10 and just threw classic shell on it. I reverted to an older version of message on my android b/c it worked better than the new one. I get that after a certain amount of time, the manufacturer won't support it anymore.. and I am fine with at tradeoff.
I have Office 2007 at my office and no plans to upgrade to 365 anytime soon. No need. I get that Microsoft won't offer support or updates on 2007 anymore and that is fine. It has worked great for 10+ years and I will continue to use it until it doesn't work anymore.
Where Tesla is running into problems is with their NEW warranty (out in January 2018)
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Model_S_X_Warranty_NA_en.pdf
If you go to page 9 it states:
"VOIDED WARRANTY:
You are responsible for the proper operation of the vehicle and for receiving and maintaining detailed and accurate records of your vehicle’s maintenance, including the 17-digit Vehicle Identification Number (“VIN”), servicing center name and address, mileage, date of service or maintenance and description of service or maintenance items, which should be transferred to each subsequent purchaser. You may void this New Vehicle Limited Warranty if you do not follow the specific instructions and recommendations regarding the use and operation of the vehicle provided in your owner documentation, including, but not limited to:
• Installing the vehicle's software updates after notification that there is an update available;
• Complying with any recall advisories;
• Carrying passengers and cargo within specified load limits; and
• Making all repairs"
That line about installing software updates is NOT in my warranty, nor is it in anyone's warranty who purchased the vehicle prior to January 2018; however, Tesla is currently not providing warranty service to people unwilling to upgrade to V9, no matter when they purchased the car. They are requiring the upgrade to provide service.
Once this is taken out of my car, I know I won't upgrade again and yes, you can avoid it by not connecting to Wi-Fi, since V9 was a Wi-FI only upgrade as was 42.2.
And while it is true, sometimes the customer is wrong... that isn't the case here. The customer was told a service would be provided and now the company is trying to back out of providing that service.
I don't care about their resource problem or anything else. I purchased a car. They broke the car. Now they need to fix it and it is 100% within their power to do it.
"Thank you for your message and sorry for the late reply.
I am now working with your local service center. You will hear from use soon. " (sic)
That was over 2 weeks ago and this was after a month of back and forths where I proved to them that it COULD be downgraded because I showed them customers who had to downgrade due to problems created by V9. Further I had written statements from the dealership and service center saying that they COULD be downgraded for safety and technical issues.
Once we got beyond the "we can't downgrade firmware" nonsense, it was just a matter of getting it scheduled.
After not hearing for 2 weeks, I sent a friendly followup asking when it could be scheduled, only to be sent right back to the very first thing stating it "can't" be done and I start the process over again and will have to loop back in the manager, the service center, etc.
As for the comparison to phones and computers.. not sure what point people are trying to make. I have NEVER had an upgrade done to any of those that I couldn't reverse and I have. I upgraded to Windows 10 at my office and then reverted back to 8.1. My home computer I kept windows 10 and just threw classic shell on it. I reverted to an older version of message on my android b/c it worked better than the new one. I get that after a certain amount of time, the manufacturer won't support it anymore.. and I am fine with at tradeoff.
I have Office 2007 at my office and no plans to upgrade to 365 anytime soon. No need. I get that Microsoft won't offer support or updates on 2007 anymore and that is fine. It has worked great for 10+ years and I will continue to use it until it doesn't work anymore.
Where Tesla is running into problems is with their NEW warranty (out in January 2018)
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Model_S_X_Warranty_NA_en.pdf
If you go to page 9 it states:
"VOIDED WARRANTY:
You are responsible for the proper operation of the vehicle and for receiving and maintaining detailed and accurate records of your vehicle’s maintenance, including the 17-digit Vehicle Identification Number (“VIN”), servicing center name and address, mileage, date of service or maintenance and description of service or maintenance items, which should be transferred to each subsequent purchaser. You may void this New Vehicle Limited Warranty if you do not follow the specific instructions and recommendations regarding the use and operation of the vehicle provided in your owner documentation, including, but not limited to:
• Installing the vehicle's software updates after notification that there is an update available;
• Complying with any recall advisories;
• Carrying passengers and cargo within specified load limits; and
• Making all repairs"
That line about installing software updates is NOT in my warranty, nor is it in anyone's warranty who purchased the vehicle prior to January 2018; however, Tesla is currently not providing warranty service to people unwilling to upgrade to V9, no matter when they purchased the car. They are requiring the upgrade to provide service.
Once this is taken out of my car, I know I won't upgrade again and yes, you can avoid it by not connecting to Wi-Fi, since V9 was a Wi-FI only upgrade as was 42.2.
And while it is true, sometimes the customer is wrong... that isn't the case here. The customer was told a service would be provided and now the company is trying to back out of providing that service.
I don't care about their resource problem or anything else. I purchased a car. They broke the car. Now they need to fix it and it is 100% within their power to do it.
I'm pretty sure people have reported getting V9 via LTE, just not as quickly as people on WiFi. (All the "older" Teslas are grandfathered into the Premium Connectivity plan that allows updates, other than maps, via LTE.)
jeffro01
Active Member
Tesla can modify the terms anytime they want for any reason they want. Deal with it.
Still running Office 2007...??? What? The? F...???? Okay so now it makes sense... Perhaps technology should leave you behind? You clearly prefer it that way... Holy hell...
Oh and I don't know who told you software updates only happen on WiFi but that's simply not true... Get used to constantly getting nagged about upgrading... Yes, yes I know, you'll throw a toddler tantrum over that as well.
Some customers aren't worth the hassle....
Jeff
Tam
Well-Known Member
Yes, Microsoft could legally change its software at any time it wanted but it had to stop forcing free Windows 10 update when it was sued.
Back to Tesla, the fact that Tesla has offered and complied the requests to roll back from V9 to V8 means that just like Microsoft, Tesla can change its terms any time it wants but there are limits and both Microsoft and Tesla have demonstrated that they won't impose on users if there's someone screaming out there.
No, they can't. They can ONLY modify terms going forward. They can't apply them retroactively.
Yes, still running Office 2007. It works quite well.
Said no successful company ever.
jeffro01
Active Member
There are thousands of successful companies that terminated relationships with problem customers so I really don't think you understand how "un-special" you are...
Tesla is going to force you to update again eventually, regardless of what your warranty says, it's going to happen. I know, I know, you'll throw out your toddler tantrum... Perhaps you should purchase another car? Considering how you view computer software security in general, a car that's essentially a computer on wheels doesn't seem like a good fit for you. I mean come on, Office 2007? Do you have any idea how many security vulnerabilities you're exposing yourself to by not keeping up to date?
Some may be asking, why do I care? I care because Tesla is extremely resourced constrained right now and it's absurd that a infinitely small minority of owners are so wrapped up in their own feelings they demand Tesla do something that takes valuable software development resources off of what actually matters. V9+, bug fixes for V9, and new features. That and it's going to be nauseating when the OP comes back and whines about the constant upgrading nagging they're going to get after the downgrade regardless of WiFi or LTE...
Jeff
Incorrect.
Tesla can't "force" an update. They have to be accepted. After V9 is removed, I will not accept another update as long as I own this car.
It is actually a very large number of owners who are unhappy with V9, which is why they were forced to make changes and even send out an e-mail. This is why every reply I get starts with "sorry for the late response". Because they inundated with unhappy Model S and X owners and face a mounting legal issue if they refuse to preform warranty repairs on cars for people who choose not to get V9. There is no requirement in the documents they signed to accept changes to their UI or a decrease in functionality.
They are resource constrained through their own doing and it could have been avoided with careful testing.
They chose a more difficult path.
Maybe one day you will learn your rights. Maybe not.
jeffro01
Active Member
LOL... Yeah, keep telling yourself that... Again, it's not unheard of at all for a company to "fire" a customer. Not even close to unheard of actually...
Sure they can and even still, if you're this paranoid NEVER take your car in for service... You're going to be in for a rude awakening... Top that off with the constant nagging you're going to get to upgrade... Each and every time you get in the car once it re-downloads V9.
Says who? You? You can't possibly know that to be true unless you work for Tesla which I HIGHLY doubt. I'm quite happy with V9 but I'm also not going to say that everyone else is either... It's software, it's highly variable as to who likes what and why. I can assure you they're not inundated with unhappy Model S or X customers over V9, your slow response time is just Tesla in general right now because of the Model 3. Again, you're not special. Mounting legal issue? For what? Requiring owners to update their software for warranty repair? It's right there in black and white and while I know you're going to whine about it not being there when you got your car, Tesla doesn't care. Changes in UI are inevitable with software... Did you even bother researching what you bought before you bought it?
Maybe one day you'll realize you're not a special snowflake. Maybe not.
Jeff
This is less effort than moving the media player. Or did they change V9 so that it no longer takes up 1/2 the screen every time you drive?
there is no resale value on his car, unless he can find someone who lives 5-7 years in the passed, I bet he losing his warranty, I wouldn't play with that, if he try to sue, he could lose, and cost so much money to try. Learn to live with the software updates, I think there great.
Said no company ever.
The car can't do squat without approval. I'd be happy to press no every time I get in the car. Did it for months after I reinstated windows 8.1. I will also take my car in for service and warn them that they cannot upgrade the software, as is my right as a consumer.
Says MANY people who work for Tesla. Talk to the managers at the service centers, at the dealerships. Talk to the customer support people. They are all complaining about it when you actually bring it up. It is the biggest complaint they are dealing with right now and they will all tell you if you bring it up.
The mounting legal issue is that Tesla cannot retroactively change the terms of their warranty. They sold a product with a specific written warranty at the time of sale. They can't, legally, later decide to not honor that warranty because they want to force a software update. They added this to their warranty terms in January 2018, but anyone who purchased prior to that is not bound by those terms, but currently many people are caught in that trap where Tesla is trying to force the update and refusing warranty service if you do not update or worse, sneaking the update in without user consent.
In reality, Tesla has a VERY SMALL customer base right now. They have sold a total of about 400-500K cars since they started. MANY of those are to the same people, so their actually customer base is likely in 300-400K range. Every customer is a precious snowflake for them, because they need every single one they can get.
Currently resale values are VERY LOW because there is a flood of Tesla's on the market.
PS: I would happily take 75K for it tomorrow if you want a 2017 Model S with 5K miles on it.
Last edited:
So you are admitting that you accepted the upgrade. Why is it now Tesla's problem to undo that? And what if you accidentally accept it in the future? Do they have to downgrade you again?
Tam
Well-Known Member
Microsoft had to be sued before it said it would stop forcing users a free and better Windows 10 upgrade.
In Tesla case, there's no need to sue Tesla because a user just needs to be insistent enough and Tesla would finally cave in and admit that "You are right, we can indeed roll back to a previous version as you request."
What so great about Tesla is if it comes with an obsolete update, just touch the accept button and the car would be up-to-date right there and then. There should be no fear of being unable to catch up if there's a refusal to update from a previous owner.
SUN-day Driver
Member
I can tell you from being a non-updater that update nags only occur once a day, not "every time you get into the car", and after a while even that stops until the next update becomes available.
I am a non-updater because I wait and read the forums to find out what I will have if I apply the current update, and so far I like what I have on version 7.1 better than what I would have if I had applied any of the updates since then. I do not have: frequent AP nags, radar-dominated AP that slams on the brakes at overpasses, disappearing controls when the map is on top, fonts that are harder to read and color removed from maps, and any of the horrible UI changes made for V9. Newer and "forward" is not always better. Tesla's older UI choices were better from a driving perspective in that they didn't make the user spend more time looking at the screen instead of the road. All this hiding controls, lower contrast fonts, gray maps, and the V9 UI changes are the wrong direction for a car's UI.
I am a non-updater because I wait and read the forums to find out what I will have if I apply the current update, and so far I like what I have on version 7.1 better than what I would have if I had applied any of the updates since then. I do not have: frequent AP nags, radar-dominated AP that slams on the brakes at overpasses, disappearing controls when the map is on top, fonts that are harder to read and color removed from maps, and any of the horrible UI changes made for V9. Newer and "forward" is not always better. Tesla's older UI choices were better from a driving perspective in that they didn't make the user spend more time looking at the screen instead of the road. All this hiding controls, lower contrast fonts, gray maps, and the V9 UI changes are the wrong direction for a car's UI.
Tam
Well-Known Member
If Microsoft and Tesla think that they have a good legal case, both would not back down and comply the request of a few.
Most likely, they both are in a shaky legal ground so that's why they comply to users' requests.
Thus, if that happens again, Déjà vu, "back to square one" they will comply to users' requests again although they may drag their feet again.
That may be true with 7.1, but I think people have said that the upgrade nags are worse on 8.1 as well.
I'm not sure that is accurate. We have at least one person that held out a long time and then when the finally wanted to upgrade the package wasn't compatible and wouldn't install on their car. The engineers had to build a custom update package to get the car updated. They may have resolved that so it doesn't happen again, or they might not have.
Similar threads
