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Batteries to Power the Grid

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by vfx, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  2. zack

    zack Member

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    Makes perfect sense.
     
  3. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    Could this be done with a Roadster? Or rather has anyone done so? It would be a nice feature to be able to keep the house running for a few days if the power goes out.
     
  4. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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  5. zack

    zack Member

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    Of course it could be done entirely with the Tesla, but there's no way to connect up to the output of the inverter. It could probably provide 220VAC or 110VAC power at 60Hz, pure sine wave via the inverter, which is designed to deliver 0-500 Hz 3-phase power to the motor. If the high-voltage lines could be disconnected to your pole pig, that transformer could be used to take 220VAC and split it down to 110VAC at the same time, as an auto-transformer. I've seen high-voltage switches with long levers going to the ground which could be used for just such a purpose. But that's end-of-the-world type stuff, really. I doubt you'll see any car manufacturers providing this kind of technology with their cars because of the intense liability involved in powering a home using the car's motor inverter. It's dangerous enough to be operating such a device self-contained, without introducing all of the potential hazards of connecting it up to your home (like lightning, unexpected surges or accidental simultaneous connection to the grid.)

    On edit: I guess the Leaf is already planned as a backup power system in Japan! My bad.
     
  6. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    Massive Battery System Captures The Wind | EarthTechling

    A video of the system is included in the article!

    The battery's are used to stabilize the grid!
    They are specialy made for this application!

    I guess Tesla could do something comparable with their technology, or find a way to use this as a way to "recycle" old batterypacks of their customers!
     
  7. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Renewable power is expensive already; adding the capital cost of storage onto their tab makes it even worse. Inventors needed to develop truly cost-effective renewable power!

    That said, your point about reusing BEV battery packs is a great one. We may care greatly that the battery is down to 60% of nominal, but as part of an array, that aging pack will still be effective.
     
  8. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    Actually I think this "battery to grid" technology is making electricity cheaper and stabilizes the market! It is not only possitive technology for this windfarm in this case!
    There are verry few ways you can store electricity! So electricity must be produced at the moment it is consumed! It is beautifuly explained in the video

    Capturing The Wind | Energy Now

    With the batteries they can store electricity when it's the cheapest, and sell when it's the most expensive (peakmoments)
    Here in belgium, the utility came on the news a few weeks ago! Complaining that when they have to buy electricity at peakmoments this can be to 6 times more expensive as usual!
    So seems to me there is a bussinesopportunity for such battery-to-grid sollutions!
    Not only for windfarms! ;-)
     
  9. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    They must be using 18650s too. They Tesla of grid storage?


    Still

    wind-storage.jpg


    Just shows the size of the problem. For storage for sustained periods of no wind it would be a lot bigger.
     
  10. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    but periods of no wind is predictable, but little spikes in electricity-consumption not! This is wherefor these batteries are used I understand!

    But indeed for sustained periods other solutions can be more suitable I think!

    Pumping water up to a lake, and release to produce electricity is also a solution!
    The lake acts as "battery" then!

    But this firm apparently knows its a big problem! They are going to make a bigger system in Texas!
    Maybe this was "just" a proof of concept!

    Bit like the roadster for the model S ?
     
  11. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    apparently they passed the proof of concept and are putting it in real action!

    Everytime bigger and bigger!

    With battery's getting cheaper, this becomes more costeffective!

    Will this evolve the same way as with phone with "longer" range and more "computing" every year?
     
  12. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Let's be really clear about what these batteries do -- they store trivially small amounts of power to smooth out short spikes, until slow-ramping generators can catch up. These AES units, nor any other batteries in use in the grid today, are designed to shift bulk quantities of MWh from night to day. There are technologies to do this: chief among them, pumped storage (which uses two reservoirs, pumping water up when there's cheap power and generating like a hydro facility when power is more valuable). The scale needed to move meaningful amounts of power between night and day is really vast: 20,000 Model S 300-mile batteries, fully charged, could provide about 2 minutes of the power consumed in California on a peak summer hour. They could also operate at 170 MW of output for 10 solid hours. The batteries cost $510 million (at a conservative $300/kWh), while the 170 MW peaking gas-fired unit costs about $150 million. Operation costs will be similar between the two units, as the batteries will be charged by electricity priced by the natural-gas-fired units that are marginal in California overnight.

    So, until battery costs drop, or renewables completely displace gas overnight (and so drop the overnight price to close to zero), batteries are a horrible way to store bulk power.

    The AES project could create value because NY has ambitions to install jaw-dropping amounts of wind, and overnight the grid has many fewer resources that can freely ramp up and down to balance large fluctuations in wind output.
     
  13. HVM

    HVM Savolainen

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    Europe: Younicos and Samsung SDI to build multi-megawatt battery parks

    pv-magazine.com...
     

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