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Battery degradation after only one month?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by qphan79, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    Is anyone out there experiencing any noticeable battery degradation? I have had my 60kwh Model S since mid -February. When I picked it up from the service center, the rated range was 189 miles. The first night I had the car i actually did a max range charge because it was my first day of actual driving and my destination was about 80 miles away. Anyway, since then, I've only did a max range charge once more about two weeks ago. With the standard charge, I noticed that i was only getting about 187-188 miles initially.
    This has continued to drop where I now get a standard charge of about 184-185. This is after the charging is complete. By the time I get in the car to drive off it can drop to 181-182. I've called the service at Tesla but they only said that they will be downloading some information and get back to me. I still haven't heard back and it's been over 2 weeks. Does anyone else out there notice that their standard charge has dropped? Btw, my max range charge last week showed 197 but it started going down after about 3 miles whereas the first time I did a max charge it stayed at 197 for about 10 miles.
     
  2. Babylonfive

    Babylonfive Power12

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    It makes a difference when you look and when you charge.

    If you charge early when you get home, and there is any vampire charge overnight, then the system might not kick back in and charge it to absolute maximum.

    One reason that I now have my charging time set (SW v4.3) to early morning, with only enough time to finish charging just before I leave for work. Maximizes my normal range in the morning, but minimizes the time the battery has the higher SOC (state of charge). Win-win, unless I decide to bug out in the night... 8 \
     
  3. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #3 stopcrazypp, Apr 5, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
    To compare battery degradation you have to look at the number immediately after it is done charging. And that number can get lower in colder temperatures, so make sure to compare at the same temperature. I know people with 85kWh see about 237-240 rated range, 275-280 ideal range in Standard Charge. The lowest reported is 271 ideal range in Standard Charge.

    There seems to be some variance though so don't expect hard numbers (it can be higher or lower).

    Also I think the 197 range charge max number is a software bug that has been reported before.
     
  4. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    Sorry I forgot to add that my car is garaged and I live in Southern California where the lows have been in the 50's. And my numbers above are usually right at the end of a charge or an hour or two after. Basically, I haven't seen a standard charge of 189 since the day i picked up the car ( except for the two times I did a max charge)
     
  5. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    On my 85 (non-perf), I haven't noticed any at all after nearly 5,000 miles and 3.5 months of driving. My standard charge is always done at 240-242 rated miles. (Haven't done a range charge at all yet).
     
  6. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    With a 60, at 4,200 miles, I've been consistently seeing 190/189 miles right after it finishes charging. I've never ever done a full max charge (only changed that setting briefly from the mobile app to do the workaround to get the car to use shore power for preconditioning the cabin a couple of times).

    My commute and charging patterns are very different though from yours, qphan79. Unlike your deep charge cycles at home to recover 110 miles every weekday (assuming you don't charge at work) and lots on weekends as well, I recover most or all of the 27 miles one-way by trickle-charging from 110V outlets at work; and, charge quickly from a 14-50 outlet at home to recover the 27 miles once back home. Very shallow cycles and probably "gentle" ones at work. Don't do more than 90 miles at most on each weekend day and even there, if I come back home between errands, I top it off from the 14-50.

    It's concerning though that the deep cycles could have such an impact so quickly.
     
  7. FredTMC

    FredTMC Model S VIN #4925

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    I also have a 60kwh delivered in mid feb. I'm getting 188 mi on a standard charge now.
     
  8. Al Sherman

    Al Sherman It's about THIS car.

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    I'm guessing this is the deal.

    If I happen to catch my P85 right at the end of the charge it is 240-242. If I just go out to the car normally in the morning it is usually 235-238. Just seems like vampire loss before reaching the threshold to get topped up.
     
  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Additional information would be helpful (thanks for updating us with the temps and your location).
    What software version are you on?

    If you are on 4.2, the rated range can fluctuate some, typically based on temps, so yours shouldn't continue to go down unless it gets colder.
    I would follow up with your service department and ask for a follow up. If you aren't getting a response from them, try [email protected].

    As for battery degradation, none after 8400 miles and 6 months here.
     
  10. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    image.jpg
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    Still on 4.2 software. Again, I don't think it's temperature related...it's been in the mid 50's for the lows out here and the car is garaged.
     
  11. bhuwan

    bhuwan Active Member

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    Hopefully threes a food explanation for this.
     
  12. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    I could definitely use some breakfast...:biggrin:
     
  13. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    How many miles does your car have on it? I think that firmware 4.2 has a different way of calculating rated range based on many factors such as temperature at the current time. Mine is erratic(85 kwh pack, 1k miles, 136-139 standard charge, car hasn't seen below 55 miles rated range, no max charges) little rhyme or reason for it. My battery has been babied, and I don't see the 242 of rated range some here do. Am I concerned? No. The discrepancies are most likely in the range calculation algorithm.
     
  14. kevincwelch

    kevincwelch Active Member

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    Some of it might be software-related.

    On 4.2, I would end a standard charge at 238-239, rarely 240. On 4.3, I get 241-242 after a standard charge. Like it was stated before, I can end at 242 and overnight in colder temperatures, walk out to my car in the AM with a charge of 235. That loss I attribute to vampire load.
     
  15. BobbyK

    BobbyK New Member

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    We are seeing the same with our 60kwh

    We took delivery of our 60kwh Model S on March 2. Our initial charge rated range was 190 miles for a standard charge. We did two max range charges and now our rated charges are 187 and no more. Our car is also in Southern California and kept in a garage. We charge every night. Thanks for the post as we were not sure anyone else was experiencing this.
     
  16. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Oddly enough, my P85 is showing a higher range number now - ever since the 4.3 upgrade.
     
  17. Oyvind.H

    Oyvind.H Member

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    Must be software glitch, or some cell failure? 1,16% in a month is way above what to be expected, and not in line with neither statistics or Panasonics official results.
    However, I see in Panasonics graph that the quickest degradation happens the first 50 cycles, and then it the pace of degradation becomes slower and slower the closer you get to 500 cycles. These are full cycles though. Shallow cycling will dramatically reduce degradation from wear (probably by as much as 50-90%!)
     
  18. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    In the Leaf world we call the distance to zero meter the Guess O-Meter, or GOM for short. the projected/ideal range is a guess at best, a shot a clairvoyance into the unpredictable nature of your future driving, there is no system on the planet than can accurately predict how far you can drive on a given amount of electricity, or gas for that matter. Add the fluctuations in ambient temperatures, wind, rain/snow etc to the changing routine and you will have an ever changing number. Tony Williams is the only one who seems to have really mastered how to measure range loss and he recommends ignoring the GOM on the Leaf and I bet he'd suggest ignoring the rated/ideal range on the S as well, though it seems a bit more consistent. the only real way to test for range loss is to create a benchmark when the car is new, starting with a full charge and then driving in test like conditions, leveling out the fluctuations in Watts per mile or miles per kW until the car is dead and then measuring the amount of energy from an actual meter, that it takes to charge to full. in the Leaf with a smaller battery, this was much easier, with the Tesla S it takes considerable time investment, but once you have a benchmark you can periodically test the car on the same route you created the benchmark with, at the same ambient temperature, weather conditions, same speed/Watts per mile and get a relatively accurate measurement.

    There is one big difference in the way that the Tesla shows the SOC vs the Leaf, and that is there are two screens that show enough resolution that you can surmise % SOC on the S. if you bring up the screen that shows the SOC broken out into 10 "bars", it's conceivable that you can measure the miles you can get on say the first 50% and use that for a benchmark (and save a lot of time), assuming the SOC is always revealing a consistent portion of the actual batteries capacity. as we've seen on the Leaf the accessible portion of the battery changes with temp due to voltage fluctuations... again, doing the test at the same temperature is one of the only ways to get an accurate reading. the fact that the Tesla has TMS does throw a curve ball into it and the vampire loads throw yet another curve ball into it. it will be very tricky to get a rock solid number without creating a standard for your test in terms of both ambient temps and making sure the battery is "cold soaked/unplugged" for the same amount of time prior to performing the test.

    there are a lot of Leaf owners who have become obsessed with range and, IMHO, it has ruined their experience of the car. Me personally, I would recommend ignoring the rate/ideal range as much as possible, just know "actual mileage will vary" and just enjoy driving the car. Gradual loss will happen, is not covered under warranty but if something drastic happens, from what I know of Tesla, it will be warrant-able. I seriously doubt Tesla will play the game Nissan has played by simply changing the definition of "gradual" as it suits them, it has cost Nissan dearly on a PR level, causing many owners, including myself, to go from long term owners to trading in and becoming short term Leasers. Tesla seems to always have an eye on the long view, so I suggest saving yourself a lot of fretting on the daily commute and just watch the battery bar rather than the prediction range. unless you are going to be pushing the limits of your particular pack size, you really don't need to be worrying about it.
     
  19. hans

    hans P631

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    I am guessing 92% SOC in the 182 mi picture and 93% SOC in the "Charge Completed" picture. I will charge up my 60 kWh and see what I get. I have 2939mi on my car, picked it up on Jan 19th, and I have max range charged it at least a half dozen times for my longer trips. I am on 4.3 firmware however and I charge at 40A so it's not a totally fair comparison.
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    One thing not mentioned is battery balance. That also affects the number you see (besides from temps). This may be affected by what power you use too. If Tesla used a 110V source to charge the battery they may see a higher number than if you use 220V. People have reported unusually high numbers when charging with 110V.

    Temp is mentioned because it seems for both cases people mention the number they see at delivery being different than what they see at home. It's entirely possible the car was charged at higher temperatures even if you have a garaged car. If Tesla charged at an air conditioned service center/factory, it's entirely possible for the battery to have been charged at or extremely near room temperature. In an unheated garage at night, the temperature is likely significantly lower than room temperature.

    In the end, Tesla can probably tell you more since they should be able to see the status of every module in the pack and tell if the pack is out of balance or what SOC/voltage it is at.
     

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