Battery degradation on Model Y with LFP

[mathewparet@gm]

I've ordered a new Model Y which will come with LFP batteries. I do not have an option to charge at home. So I guess my only options to charge are:

1. Tesla Super charger
2. DC Fast charging by other providers (like NRMA in Sydney)
3. Destination charger (level 2)

Has anyone had experience using only superchargers or fast DC chargers with the new model Y with LFP batteries? How is the battery degradation?

 

[jcanoe]

Look for relevant data for the 2021 and newer SR+ Model 3 (in the US) and the Model 3 sold in China as these use the LFP battery.

What about the option to charge at work?
There is no downside to Supercharging except for cost and convenience. If you are worried about stressing the battery seek out the Urban Superchargers (typically installed in parking garages, these UC are limited to 72kW charging rate.)

 

[mathewparet@gm]

I thought supercharging is bad for the battery!

 

[jcanoe]

I thought supercharging is bad for the battery!

Tesla manages the Supercharging session for optimal efficiency while protecting the battery. Tesla also tracks the lifetime charging history for each battery pack, i.e. keeps track of the number of times that a Supercharger has been used. Tesla has this covered, so don't worry too much about Supercharging.

Whenever charging (or discharging) a lithium battery for minimal stress and maintaining the storage capacity of the battery you want to limit the charging rate (also discharge rate) to 1 X C where C is the capacity of the battery in kWh.

The V3 Superchargers can reach 250kW peak charging rates but only for about 5 or 6 minutes before starting to taper down the charging rate. The V2 Superchargers can reach 150kW charging rates but they too taper down after 40% state of charge.

The Urban Superchargers are limited to 72kW, even lower than a V2 Supercharger after tapering off has started. Charging at an Urban Supercharger without first preconditioning the battery (very common if you live close by the Supercharger because you won't have enough drive time to enable fully preconditioning for Supercharging before reaching the Supercharger) means charging at 36kW which is going to stress the battery even less. Using an Urban Supercharger limits the charging rate close to or less than the ideal maximum of 1C. Charging using an Urban Supercharger will take a bit longer than using a V2 or V3 Supercharger but that gives you more time to shop or enjoy a meal before heading back to the Supercharger station to unplug to avoid idling charges while plugged in and not actively charging.

Most battery degradation takes place over the first few years, due to the natural aging of the battery independent of how the battery is charged or used.

 

[240vPlug]

I don't know about down under, but having to rely on supercharging for all your charging needs here in the states would be pretty expensive. The savings from owning an EV come from having home or work charging options.

When I owned my Bolt EV there were tests done with frequent DC fast charges over 100,000 miles or so and excessive degradation wasn't an issue. Now granted those maxed out at 55kw vs 250kw for Tesla but like was said above the BMS has an algorithm and so it will adjust the charge rate based on info from the battery like temperature and soc. Tesla doesn't want to have to warranty replace the battery pack so rest assured they will manage any impact from frequent supercharging.

If your going to rely 100% on superchargers I would look at the cost in your area.

 

[jjrandorin]

I've ordered a new Model Y which will come with LFP batteries. I do not have an option to charge at home.

For what reason are you ordering an EV?

Maybe I am not following this closely enough, but which model Y comes with LFP batteries?

 

[thesmokingman]

For what reason are you ordering an EV?

Maybe I am not following this closely enough, but which model Y comes with LFP batteries?

I believe these are the CATL LFP Shanghai cars that went to Europe and Aus, or whatever other markets.

Tesla Model Y First Deliveries In Australia And New Zealand

The Australian market is relatively small, but important. Tesla has taken its time on the delivery of the Model Y crossover to these oceanic territories, but the first deliveries have already been made, both in Australia and New Zealand. In these countries you drive on the left with the steering...

www.torquenews.com

 

[jjrandorin]

I believe these are the CATL LFP Shanghai cars that went to Europe and Aus, or whatever other markets.

Tesla Model Y First Deliveries In Australia And New Zealand

The Australian market is relatively small, but important. Tesla has taken its time on the delivery of the Model Y crossover to these oceanic territories, but the first deliveries have already been made, both in Australia and New Zealand. In these countries you drive on the left with the steering...

www.torquenews.com

Interesting, thanks.

OP, as far as the thread question itself, there is a 700+ post thread in the model 3 subforum specifically on model 3s with LFP batteries and degradation. I am not following the topic (I dont have a LFP battery model 3 and have read all I want to know about battery degradation), but since it is about the type battery and similar car perhaps you want to look there.

Model 3 SR+ LFP Battery Range, Degradation, etc Discussion

Now that LFP batteries have been operating for a couple months in the US, I thought it would be useful to start a thread for people to post their experiences with degradation of LFP batteries. A major benefit of these batteries is supposed to be resistant to degradation, so let's test that claim...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[TheLex]

Tesla manages the Supercharging session for optimal efficiency while protecting the battery. Tesla also tracks the lifetime charging history for each battery pack, i.e. keeps track of the number of times that a Supercharger has been used. Tesla has this covered, so don't worry too much about Supercharging.

Charging at an Urban Supercharger without first preconditioning the battery (very common if you live close by the Supercharger because you won't have enough drive time to enable fully preconditioning for Supercharging before reaching the Supercharger) means charging at 36kW which is going to stress the battery even less.

Most battery degradation takes place over the first few years, due to the natural aging of the battery independent of how the battery is charged or used.

How vital is it to precondition the battery before charging? Is it necessary before charging at a V2 or V3 Supercharger?

In my case, it's actually cheaper to charger at Superchargers during off-peak hours than it is to charge at home. My Northern California PG&E rates are $0.32 for the first 1000 kWh, and then $0.39 for the next tier.

 

[jcanoe]

How vital is it to precondition the battery before charging? Is it necessary before charging at a V2 or V3 Supercharger?

In my case, it's actually cheaper to charger at Superchargers during off-peak hours than it is to charge at home. My Northern California PG&E rates are $0.32 for the first 1000 kWh, and then $0.39 for the next tier.

Not necessary but faster and more efficient. Also, your Tesla vehicle will display a message to inform you (scold you?) of the benefits of preconditioning for Supercharging; you can only perform this special preconditioning by driving. You can't precondition for Supercharging while parked. So if you start out too close to a Supercharger your choice is to drive around for ~30 minutes or just accept whatever level of preconditioning for Supercharging has been completed by the time you plug in. There are some extreme edge cases that apply if you are in Canada, in very cold temperatures, trying to Supercharge with a battery that is too cold to Supercharge.

 

[TheLex]

Not necessary but faster and more efficient. Also, your Tesla vehicle will display a message to inform you (scold you?) of the benefits of preconditioning for Supercharging; you can only perform this special preconditioning by driving. You can't precondition for Supercharging while parked. So if you start out too close to a Supercharger your choice is to drive around for ~30 minutes or just accept whatever level of preconditioning for Supercharging has been completed by the time you plug in. There are some extreme edge cases that apply if you are in Canada, in very cold temperatures, trying to Supercharge with a battery that is too cold to Supercharge.

It's about a 20 minute drive from our house to the kids' school, and then on to the nearest Supercharger. Total distance is about 8.5 mi. Considering it's typically 65-70 degrees at that time of the morning during our summers, do I really have to precondition any more than that? In the winters when it's 35 degrees in the morning, I would probably precondition by scheduling our departure time and setting the interior temp to warm up to 68-70 degrees. I imagine that should suffice?

 

[jcanoe]

It's about a 20 minute drive from our house to the kids' school, and then on to the nearest Supercharger. Total distance is about 8.5 mi. Considering it's typically 65-70 degrees at that time of the morning during our summers, do I really have to precondition any more than that? In the winters when it's 35 degrees in the morning, I would probably precondition by scheduling our departure time and setting the interior temp to warm up to 68-70 degrees. I imagine that should suffice?

Preconditioning for Supercharging will bring the battery pack to ~115F for optimal Supercharging. This is not the same as preconditioning the battery before driving and warming the passenger cabin. You can certainly use a Supercharger when the battery is much less than 115F but the charging rate (kW) will be limited.

To precondition for Supercharging you set the Supercharger location as the destination in the Tesla Navigation system and the Tesla vehicle will begin warming the battery for Supercharging along the route. 20 minutes may not be enough time to fully precondition the battery for Supercharging, it could take an hour depending on the outside temperature.

 

[TheLex]

Preconditioning for Supercharging will bring the battery pack to ~115F for optimal Supercharging. This is not the same as preconditioning the battery before driving and warming the passenger cabin. You can certainly use a Supercharger when the battery is much less than 115F but the charging rate (kW) will be limited.

Good information. I'm ok with a limited charging rate, since I'm not in a hurry in the mornings (retired). I just want to make sure it doesn't hurt the battery. So far, based on what I've googled, Supercharging doesn't seem to hurt the battery. Since it's cheaper for me to Supercharge at off-peak hours than charge at home, that seems like to the way to go.

 

[jcanoe]

Good information. I'm ok with a limited charging rate, since I'm not in a hurry in the mornings (retired). I just want to make sure it doesn't hurt the battery. So far, based on what I've googled, Supercharging doesn't seem to hurt the battery. Since it's cheaper for me to Supercharge at off-peak hours than charge at home, that seems like to the way to go.

Use the Plugshare app to locate public Level 2 charging stations nearby that you can use. (Some of these public charging stations may be free to use for a few hours.)

 

[Mrbrock]

For all the talk about Tesla managing supercharging and it not being bad for the battery, I can say from personal experience that it is directly related to degradation. I present my battery report from teslafi. For the first 2800 miles or so it was strictly L2 charging. Then I moved from CA to WA and had to supercharge. If you can view this and continue to believe that degradation isn’t related to supercharging, I don’t know what else will convince you. Yes, the battery will slowly degrade over time but it is my belief that supercharging will speed it up over time.

 

[jcanoe]

For all the talk about Tesla managing supercharging and it not being bad for the battery, I can say from personal experience that it is directly related to degradation. I present my battery report from teslafi. For the first 2800 miles or so it was strictly L2 charging. Then I moved from CA to WA and had to supercharge. If you can view this and continue to believe that degradation isn’t related to supercharging, I don’t know what else will convince you. Yes, the battery will slowly degrade over time but it is my belief that supercharging will speed it up over time.
View attachment 847381

Over what period of time (months)?

 

[Mrbrock]

Over what period of time (months)?

Took delivery late January 2022. Trip with supercharging was first week in may. Doesn’t really matter how long The point is both sides of the supercharging trip are fairly flat. I have only supercharged a couple times since that trip so I will agree that occasional usage is fine. But 5 times in 2 days appears to have a negative effect.

 

[jcanoe]

Took delivery late January 2022. Trip with supercharging was first week in may. Doesn’t really matter how long The point is both sides of the supercharging trip are fairly flat. I have only supercharged a couple times since that trip so I will agree that occasional usage is fine. But 5 times in 2 days appears to have a negative effect.

Length of time is relevant as the battery naturally loses capacity as it ages.

Not sure how fleet average should be interpreted since Tesla is turning out more Model Y vehicles every quarter. With many new battery packs entering the fleet it seems like that line from Dazed and Confused regarding high school girls spoken by Wooderson applies.

Wooderson: "I get older, they stay the same."

 

[TheLex]

For all the talk about Tesla managing supercharging and it not being bad for the battery, I can say from personal experience that it is directly related to degradation. I present my battery report from teslafi. For the first 2800 miles or so it was strictly L2 charging. Then I moved from CA to WA and had to supercharge. If you can view this and continue to believe that degradation isn’t related to supercharging, I don’t know what else will convince you. Yes, the battery will slowly degrade over time but it is my belief that supercharging will speed it up over time.
View attachment 847381

Thanks for the data. However doesn't the battery lose capacity over time (especially the first year) anyway? I've seen multiple posts from folks saying they were charging at home and still suffered up to a 10% loss of range after the first few months to 1 year.

 

[Rocky_H]

I'm ok with a limited charging rate, since I'm not in a hurry in the mornings (retired). I just want to make sure it doesn't hurt the battery.

The car won't let you hurt the battery from charging too fast. It's just not a thing at all. So you don't need to prepare it or precondition ever. The car is very aware of the temperature inside its own battery, and it will limit the charging speeds as much as it needs to to be safe and not allow damage. The warming and preconditioning is only for convenience for YOU because the charging could go faster if it's warm and save you time.