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Battery health tracking SS
- Thread starter msinfo
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I am sure you are not the only one who does
PS This discussion has been derailed enough IMO so I, personally hope to keep focus on more info that is based on studies, real data and how it can be massaged to provide useful info.
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Yes great for mentioning that. If one looks at posts in this thread and about 20 other threads slides are cropped that are used for reference. One I don't trust people that do such things. Data is only as good as who creates or harvests it. Those charts aren't @AAKEE 's , but cropped from battery university presentations. How does one go and defend what you say isn't being used, and you and others say is old?
I am all for bench testing, but those ways are no good to me. His inputs are great, but he is using old data, and his massaged data.
So I again have said my piece, but saying what your issue was, I feel I needed to respond. Also apologies to all on the run on sentences and such. I was driving through the Dakota's, and only could do voice to text.
Do you care a lot about your range?
Do you track your range?
Do you worry about your range?
If the answer is yes, then that's the point
Tesla built the car to drive and not worry about the battery. All these armchair quarterbacks are scaring the crap out of people.
Sure, the batteries degrade slightly, it's nothing to really worry about.
Sure, by taking meticulous care of the battery, you may be able to extend it's life. But is it 1 day or 1 year? From everything that I've seen, it's more like a day.
No, I do not take anyting from battery university at all. Zip, none.
This as I, while thinking the battery university per principle is a good idea, there are way to much information that is not correct there.
I only refer to data and pictures from research reports. The sources I use have always (well almost always) been thoroughly read, questioned and rated by myself to be good enough for use.
I often use data from Peter Keils research, for example this one: ( a reaaly good read)
Research report (yes it is written in English).
Or this one:
Research report
Or this one:
Research report
This,
And this:
Comes from a research taking model S cells from a almost new model S and storing and cycling them:
This report
I have put references into very many posts before but it kind of makes the posts long, amd it takes a lot of time finding the correct link again.
I have probably already linked to all the research reports at least ten times so I did stop to use links.
In total it is more than 150 or 200 research reports thouroghly red, and perhaps 150 that show mostly the same things. In general the other 50 or so also does but the setup can be hiding facts, or the setup caused the researchers to draw faulty conclusions.
My favorite is the guys that found that LFP would last >100 years if you charged them to full. (The problem was a decision to “decide” that the curve that should fit three datapoints had to be a U curve…..wrong!!!
They did not even use a forth datapoint to checkup that the ”U assumption” was correct.
Taking the data from this test and putting it into the calendar aging charts i ”always post” makes a 100% perfect fit.
(I have posts here about that also since before)
Yes it is a club forum. Many seem to be focused on the way I say things. Chuckle all you want. Maybe look at the content. You know and ask around outside your circle of experts. Most will answer the way I have for general public. You are free to think otherwise. I actually talk to strangers. I listen, not just hear what I want to hear as a Tesla owner for a crap ton of miles. Approach business owners asking for charging with monetary help on install seeing the push back. I am sure you do the same. I didn't really read all your trivial wordy responses, but again my point is proven.
Most if not all questions from potential buyers is not battery health. Its convivence. Confuse the buyer they don't engage. 22% by 2025 can't really be achievable if consumers balk. Haven't we seen Business Insider junk from this place before?
Yet everyone is getting good at searches, and this and other threads are the pretty popular.
The NICHE you say is a little more than that, and if you call convenience detailed, well I can't help you. You are all suggesting to trade convenience for some gain in the future you can't quantify.
Would be nice if one had more then 50% if they had to out run a hurricane, grid disruption, or some other natural disaster, but those are outliers.
You can of course just use the car.
Charge to 80 or 90% any day. Just like per the manual.
The battery will survive the warranty period in moste cases but you will have the double degradation compared to one that use the low SOC strategy.
You yet have to post a picture of the energy graph, to show your degradation black on white.
I still say that your battery cannot escape the laws of physics and chemistry, because of this it IS degraded about as per my calculation earlier.
Utter hogwash. This is exactly what I am talking about. Broad statements like this make a potential buyer go. What?
How can this be? Charging to 100% results in less degradation than charging to 80%.
I have no idea why some of the many (many many many many many many many many many maaaaaaannnnnnyyyy) "range / battery" threads blow up, while others dont, but that happens, and here we are.
I will remind people that we do allow disagreements, but do not allow personal attacks. Most regulars know this, but just in case, I am publicly reminding everyone (as If I feel a need to take action based on something in this thread, I will know that I have already issued two different public notifications).
Debate the subject, sure. Disagree with each other? Sure. Be rude or nasty to each other? No. There are other websites that care less about that kind of interaction than TMC does, so if that is desired, I would suggest seeking those type of websites out.
I will remind people that we do allow disagreements, but do not allow personal attacks. Most regulars know this, but just in case, I am publicly reminding everyone (as If I feel a need to take action based on something in this thread, I will know that I have already issued two different public notifications).
Debate the subject, sure. Disagree with each other? Sure. Be rude or nasty to each other? No. There are other websites that care less about that kind of interaction than TMC does, so if that is desired, I would suggest seeking those type of websites out.
A) You have those that agree with Tesla, then you have the "experts" that don't
B) Most of the other threads blow up as well, with either the energy discussion, or more commonly FSD. Even though the subject isn't about them.
Tslylr
Member
My guess is, first owners not carrying much about batteries with todays chemistry, will make second/third hand users experience possibly horrible. And it will make the second hand EV market worse. Like this guy, who probably didn't care much, has now car with battery which needs replacement after 150k miles. I'm curious, how would his battery hold using low SOC daily charging strategy. Reddit - Dive into anything
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Remember, this came from the salesman when I picked up my model three long range on Monday but he said it was a LG 78.1 battery. Does that help with anything?
It it true.
This statement is supported by very many research reports.
This is my now sold M3P after 66K km.
I had about 17-20% supercharging and about 35 full charges, still way better than the average of the same car.
The dip in the middle was the BMS loosing track of the capacity. I did a 100-0% drive at the lowest dip which proved 79kWh capacity.
There are many many more cars in the teslafi data, but the setting for this pict only covered 5 other.
Changing to all 400 cars did not change the average line.
So, my last two full charge was 490km and 492km, out of 507 km
The average cars
There is more than one calendar aging test that show the highest calendar aging happens around 80%. The reason is also given in a few of them, above 80% the self discharge in the cells are quite high, but from 80% and below the self discharge is low. I havent digged into the exact chemical details (I have tried to stay outside that box, and focused mainly on what happens, not why) but what they say is that the self discharge stream of current reduces the calendar aging.
More or less all research show signs of that the calendar aging can be higher at 80% than at 100%. At elevated temperatures (40C and more) the worst calendar aging often is at 100%.
While It could be good to know that 100% not always is worse than 80% the takeaway is that high SOC, thats above the ”step” cused by the central graphite peak (google that or look for my posts here about that) cause about the same degradation.
Also, that 100% is not at all as bad as the forum myths say, in most cases 100% is about the same as 80-90% in terms of calendar aging.
Theres often no need to leave the battery with 100% for a longer time, like overnight or so…but if needed by asny reason the battery will not take damage from it.
For the known LG batteries, there is only a LG NMC of 74.5kWh and the new LG NCMA with 78.8.
Salesmen at Tesla have not been fed with battery capacity information etc. Some know, but most have rumors as information.
I would call the new battery 76.3kWh from a simple range vs capacity difference. I guess the Model 3 didnt gfet reduced efficiency.
And that doesn't happen with ICE resales?
But look at the numbers, are we talking about 25% degradation if you don't pamper the battery? Looking at @AAKEE last graph, it's only about 25 miles. (<10%). But even that data is suspect because it isn't age normalized, which has just as much impact.
The point is, information like this, scares the heck out of prospective buyers. Not only are they worried about the range to begin with. Now they come away with "If I don't treat my battery perfectly, it will die in x years" That's just not the case. All we are looking at is 10%.
Ive been following this thread for a bit.
My initial unsolicited contribution is:
Yes preserving range is important to me. I like to maximize and have as much margin as possible on road trips. In fact, on one of my routes, my family and I prefer a specific supercharger because of its available facilities. If my battery degrades too much, I could end up 1 stop short and at a different supercharger that doesnt have the preferred facilities that we love. If I can delay that for many more years, I will do it.
Moving a simple charging slider to a lower number during my local daily drive is very easy to set and not worry about. My daily drive distances allow me to do this so why not take advantage.
Even with ICE cars, I pamper them and do not “drive it like I stole it”. I change oil much earlier and like to lick it off my fingers sometimes if it still comes out clean. It makes me feel good knowing I washed my own car with no swirls and got my OCD fix for the day. That carries on with EVs. Therefore, in addition, I will not “charge it like you stole it”.
Thank you for those that contribute to factual based education that support good EV ownership habits.
My initial unsolicited contribution is:
Yes preserving range is important to me. I like to maximize and have as much margin as possible on road trips. In fact, on one of my routes, my family and I prefer a specific supercharger because of its available facilities. If my battery degrades too much, I could end up 1 stop short and at a different supercharger that doesnt have the preferred facilities that we love. If I can delay that for many more years, I will do it.
Moving a simple charging slider to a lower number during my local daily drive is very easy to set and not worry about. My daily drive distances allow me to do this so why not take advantage.
Even with ICE cars, I pamper them and do not “drive it like I stole it”. I change oil much earlier and like to lick it off my fingers sometimes if it still comes out clean. It makes me feel good knowing I washed my own car with no swirls and got my OCD fix for the day. That carries on with EVs. Therefore, in addition, I will not “charge it like you stole it”.
Thank you for those that contribute to factual based education that support good EV ownership habits.
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