Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[DILIE]

I think the only way this could possibly result in better efficiency is if you drive like my wife.

Her preferred method of driving ICE cars on the freeway seems to be stabbing the throttle at semi-regular intervals and then letting it go completely so the car can coast for a while.

I always thought she drove a little herky-jerky, but didn’t piece it together until I was following her while she was driving the Tesla. She’d let off every now and then to the point that the brake lights would come on from the regen, nice little “brake check” on the freeway for the car behind her. I’m sure people love that.

It’s easy enough to “coast” the car with your foot - no need to change settings. With TACC engaged, I can’t imagine there’s any difference in efficiency related to the regen setting.

My wife and a friend's wife also drive like that. I've wanted to chart it to show her, but then I remember I'm not that stupid.
Mutated throttle gene?

 

[ucmndd]

My wife and a friend's wife also drive like that. I've wanted to chart it to show her, but then I remember I'm not that stupid.

Smart man. I too keep my mouth shut except to offer to drive. Win-win.

 

[croman]

Might be shoe related but I wouldn't know because my wife knows she can't drive.

 

[Cmdred]

I think the only way this could possibly result in better efficiency is if you drive like my wife.

Her preferred method of driving ICE cars on the freeway seems to be stabbing the throttle at semi-regular intervals and then letting it go completely so the car can coast for a while.

I always thought she drove a little herky-jerky, but didn’t piece it together until I was following her while she was driving the Tesla. She’d let off every now and then to the point that the brake lights would come on from the regen, nice little “brake check” on the freeway for the car behind her. I’m sure people love that.

It’s easy enough to “coast” the car with your foot - no need to change settings. With TACC engaged, I can’t imagine there’s any difference in efficiency related to the regen setting.

Yes that's what I do.. but the thing is with BEV's the mass and inertia is so high that you really go far coasting. If its a flat road you really don't start to slow down for quite a while. Its really fun! It worked a lot better in the RAV4EV which had a shifter and you could shift from no regen to "low" which was really a low level regen. Also, the brakes were part regen and part real brakes. I think Tesla brakes are straight up regular brakes, or are they? Anyway, you are right, and the difference is noticeable on the energy display. I'm still doing tests, once I do crank the data I'll post it.

 

[Cmdred]

Actually, I’d love another option for this - similar to auto lowering of the car - turn off regen over e.g. 60mph completely, then reneable it when going slower - then one can coast at highway speeds (or wherever one sets the threshold), but have regen in city traffic.

I think that might be the best of both worlds.

Yeah just having the option to turn it on and off would be great, having it come on below a certain speed would be cool too.

 

[drklain]

I'm confused. I do this now with my Tesla set on standard regen. You just lift off the pedal a bit until you see the energy utilization bar go to zero (or near it). No green regen, no orange energy utilization. It's easy to ride that pedal in that position and then you can either depress down to speed up or release more to decelerate. And it allows you to avoid touching the brake pedal except when you are in the final stages of coming to a complete stop. Ends up saving wear and tear and brake pads as well...

 

[ucmndd]

I'm confused. I do this now with my Tesla set on standard regen. You just lift off the pedal a bit until you see the energy utilization bar go to zero (or near it). No green regen, no orange energy utilization. It's easy to ride that pedal in that position and then you can either depress down to speed up or release more to decelerate. And it allows you to avoid touching the brake pedal except when you are in the final stages of coming to a complete stop. Ends up saving wear and tear and brake pads as well...

You’re not confused. You’re just doing it correctly.

 

[Peter Lucas]

I have done 4000 miles in my Tesla model 3 Oct 2019. Its now rated at 230 miles full charge compared to 240 advertised though it only ever charged to 239 since new. Last week I did a drive which is flat little elevation of 130 miles I left with 95% and arrived back with 28% with an average consumption of 222wh/mi with the data taken from a better route planner connected to the car. This is my latest trip info with the car. But I have lost range already and never started with the 240 as sold. But this seemed to be quite the common thing in peoples apps. Would be interested to see how it compares.

Ok to add on the way back 246wh/mi.

Just remember that the cars display of range may not decrease in proportion to actual battery degradation. In other words, your battery may have degraded much more than suggested by the small decrease in range from 240 to 230.

 

[Peter Lucas]

I'm confused. I do this now with my Tesla set on standard regen. You just lift off the pedal a bit until you see the energy utilization bar go to zero (or near it). No green regen, no orange energy utilization. It's easy to ride that pedal in that position and then you can either depress down to speed up or release more to decelerate. And it allows you to avoid touching the brake pedal except when you are in the final stages of coming to a complete stop. Ends up saving wear and tear and brake pads as well...

What is it about your experience that confuses you? Sounds like you just discovered the marvel of one pedal driving. Acceleration, coasting, braking (partial braking), all in one pedal. You don't really need to look at the energy graph. If you haven't noticed, regen braking triggers the brake lights to come on, just as it should.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Totally disagree. I have done some very long drives (250mi+) in my 90D. The projected state of chart (trip display) is very accurate and if anything, I find it to be a bit conservative (I rarely arrive somewhere at a LOWER state of charge than what it predicted when I started the trip bur regularly arrive somewhat higher remaining SOC than what was projected.

Now the actual "miles remaining" display on the Energy graph is a different story. Even if you let it to the longest possible integration, it is merely projecting based on your actual usage over the last 30 miles and there can be big variation in there do to speed, traffic conditions, type of driving (highway vs. streets), and elevation changes, even on the same drive. That said, it is generally a "good approximation" number and, when combined with the trip display you can be confident of what SOC you will arrive at.

Good for you, drklain, that you car and battery deliver as advertised. You are lucky. On average, Model S owners get around 70% of the Rated Miles. So, if there are cars like yours delivering 100%, think how poorly some cars must be doing to make the average 70%.
TezLab

 

[DProffitt]

My 2014 Model S60 battery failed two weeks ago. I received it back today and I looked like the range was odd. I believe the S60 was rated at 208 and when I got home I decided to charge it to 100% to check the range and at 100% it is 173.

They told me I was getting a refurbished pack. I checked the sticker and it reads:

60kWh, 350VDC
part number: 1120019-01-B

Any ideas? This is lower than I was getting before it was replaced.

My battery simply stopped working too... Towed to the SC and they replaced it with a "Remanufactured" (still not sure what that means) battery. Mine is a 2015 S 85D with 38,000 Mi. Just glad I didn't have to pay for it LOL... It is same or similar as the older one down to the degradation (unless they set that behind the scenes)...Mine was rated for 270mi new and was at around 262 when it failed and when I received the "new" battery it was also around 262-263. IMHO a 2014 model should have around a 190 mi left through normal degradation based on loss I've been "taught" by the aficionados on this site. So either your battery had degraded further than normal or they gave you a lesser battery. What were you getting before it failed?

 

[aerodyne]

Good for you, drklain, that you car and battery deliver as advertised. You are lucky. On average, Model S owners get around 70% of the Rated Miles. So, if there are cars like yours delivering 100%, think how poorly some cars must be doing to make the average 70%.
TezLab

Interesting. I don't push the car, chill mode/range mode always on. 298 Wh/mi since purchased used. 5k road trip saw 313. So, my efficiency, in a nearly identical type car, seems to agree with the Dr...

The tezlab stats are interesting, but reflect how the car is driven (Actual wh/mi vs rated wh/mi) plus other factors...like weather, accessory use.

Not to say that there are not things like degradation that Tesla is hiding. Plus much more can go wrong with the HV pack besides the cells, as I am finding out...

 

[drklain]

@Peter Lucas I believe you misunderstood my point. Nowhere did I say that battery degradation isn't real or doesn't exist. It is real and does exist, that is a function of battery chemistry and how the battery (car) is charged/discharged. Someone who always charges the car to 90 or 100% and is doing deep discharges (regularly running it down to below 20%) will CAUSE greater degradation to the battery than someone who keeps it in the mid-range of charge. In my case, I am a consultant and am on travel a majority of the time, which means my car sits at the airport (a lot).

When I am home and driving it, I typically drive under 50 miles a day unless taking a road trip somewhere or if I drive to a meeting a greater distance away. The result is that my "at home" mode is to normally charge the car to 60%. I drive it for the day and plug it in when I get home. My car is set to begin charging at 6am every day. That means charging is normally finished by 7 am and I have a (somewhat) warmed battery when I leave for the office (which makes a big difference in Wh per mile since the battery heater is the biggest load on the car and having the battery warmed via charging reduces heater use - especially in winter).

Now with respect to getting 70 percent of rated miles, let's be clear what we are talking about. If you are talking about the "gas gauge" display of miles on the dashboard (the one that can either show miles of range left or percent of battery charge left), that is absolutely true. This is because (as well documented) that range number is a static number based on the rated mileage battery consumption number (if memory serves, it is 293 wH/mile for a 90D model S which is what I have). Relying on that indicator or expecting it to be accurate is the same as taking the number of gallons of gas in your car and multiplying it by the EPA rated fuel economy number and expecting it to accurately predict how much range is left if your car. Cars (Teslas or ICE vehicles) only get the EPA rated fuel economy under controlled conditions or when they happen to pass through that number as the actual usage number is constantly changing. Idling at a stoplight - you are burning fuel/using energy with no miles gained so your number effectively goes to infinity. Driving in city traffic where you are constantly starting and stopping, the number skyrockets. Driving on a highway at a steady speed on a flat road (effectively no acceleration or deceleration) - the number approaches maximum fuel/energy economy and minimum wH per mile.

This is why I (and many others) have changed that display from miles (or kilometers) to "percent" (which also more closely mimics a regular car gas gauge by showing a rough estimate of how much elecricity is "left in the battery". If I want to know how far the remaining electricity will take me, I go to the energy graph on the MCU which (if set to 30 mile trailing aveage) is incredibly accurate although perhaps a touch conservative. I do not know of a single person who has used that graph and found a different result assuming driving conditions didn't suddenly change massively (for example, you look at the graph after having driving on relatively flat terrain and then proceed to start climbing Pike's peak).

That graph is accurate because it rolls a trailing average over your last 30 miles of real world battery/energy use. Winter and the battery heater and/or car heater on? It reflects it. Raining and the wet road is causing more rolling resistance? It reflects it. Driving through hilly terrain? It reflects it. Driving in stop and go traffic with lots of acceleration and deceleration? It reflects it. Have a lead foot and constantly use lots of energy accelerating from stops? It reflects it. In short, that energy use graph and the estimated range remaining is very accurate for your car with you driving it under current conditions.

Now some will say "why does the ICE car "range remaining display" show an accurate number and the Tesla dashboard range display does not. That is simple...they use two different data sources. The Tesla uses the EPA rated number. ICE cars use an average fuel economy number to calculate it and (for American cars) also have gauges which lie about what "empty" is. People brag all the time about driving an extra 20 miles after their ICE car says remaining range is "0" or the gas gauge is on empty. European cars tend to have accurate gas gauges. American manufacturers years ago determined that people tended to run out of gas, so they padded the gauges.

Bottom line:

1. Yes battery degradation is real and a function of how the battery is maintained/charged/discharged. I go easy on my battery and (according to TeslaMate) currently have a full battery projected range of 282 miles after 3 years of ownership and almost 25,000 miles driven (which puts me past the initial/steepest part of the battery degradation curve as you pointed out.
2. Cars also decrease in fuel efficiency as they get older, tires wear, the engine gets less efficient. It is just harder to detect because the scale we use (miles per gallon) is so large when we are talking cars that, on average, get around 25 MPG.
   
3. Yes, Tesla does provide a method to project how much range you have remaining in your car that is incredibly accurate - the MCU energy display set to 30 miles trailing average) and becomes even more accurate if you have a trip in the navigation system and look at the trip display which now projects forward based on actual terrain/elevation changes.
4. No, the Tesla "range remaining" display on the dashboard (IC) will NOT be accurate and (in most cases) will reflect a number which is overly optimistic by up to 30% because it is based on the EPA rated range number.
   
5. Use of "Percent Remaining" on the IC display is a better way to get a gross idea of how much electricity is in the battery.
6. Teslas of all makes and models regularly are more energy efficient/get maximum range while steadily driving (minimum acceleration/deceleration) at a moderate rate of speed.

I do wish that Tesla gave us the option to display the 30 mile trailing average number as 'range remaining" on the IC. That would solve/eliminate a lot of the problems/complaints about inaccurate numbers, but to date Tesla has chosen not to do so for some reason. All that said, your assertion that Teslas do not accurately reflect the range remaining in the car is simply not true - you are just looking in the wrong place.

 

[drklain]

What is it about your experience that confuses you? Sounds like you just discovered the marvel of one pedal driving. Acceleration, coasting, braking (partial braking), all in one pedal. You don't really need to look at the energy graph. If you haven't noticed, regen braking triggers the brake lights to come on, just as it should.

That comment was in response to the people who said they wanted the option to have the car coast when they released the pedal completely because otherwise they were not being as energy efficient since they could not coast. My point was you can coast, it is just in a different pedal position....

 

[aerodyne]

That comment was in response to the people who said they wanted the option to have the car coast when they released the pedal completely because otherwise they were not being as energy efficient since they could not coast. My point was you can coast, it is just in a different pedal position....

One comment on the above...you can also see when the brake lights come on the IC. I find if I coast by modulation of the pedal just enough to avoid the brake lights coming on, then it is a happy medium for moderate freeway traffic.

 

[robertmanning]

Sorry for being MIA. I know I started this whole thing. I literally left for a work trip for a month (driving) and just got back. It was a civil rights trip and was very eye-opening. If you find the current racial climate in the U.S. problematic, please write/call your political representatives and ask/demand for change/police reform/equity for all/etc. Okay, soapbox moment over.

Picked up the car with the battery replacement (75kWh) and I checked the sticker and code on the battery, and immediately began my trip which took me on a 3,000 mile journey. The 75 battery was not limited.

This time the battery behaved just as a 75kWh battery should. Remember I had a S60 and the first battery Replacement was with a 60kWh battery that performed like a 45kWh battery.

I’ve been getting around 240 miles of rated range charging to 90% but please remember that this has been almost exclusively highway driving.

So far no problems. Again, thank you for everyone’s help and this entire process was unfortunate given I had to file a warranty dispute to find a solution.

They said they were going to do some diagnostics on the 60 replacement battery to determine what the problem was. I can’t say if they put a 75 battery in to avoid any future problems or as an act of good faith/goodwill.


Rob

 

[robertmanning]

Sorry for being MIA. I know I started this whole thing. I literally left for a work trip for a month (driving) and just got back. It was a civil rights trip and was very eye-opening. If you find the current racial climate in the U.S. problematic, please write/call your political representatives and ask/demand for change/police reform/equity for all/etc. Okay, soapbox moment over.

Picked up the car with the battery replacement (75kWh) and I checked the sticker and code on the battery, and immediately began my trip which took me on a 3,000 mile journey. The 75 battery was not limited.

This time the battery behaved just as a 75kWh battery should. Remember I had a S60 and the first battery Replacement was with a 60kWh battery that performed like a 45kWh battery.

I’ve been getting around 240 miles of rated range charging to 90% but please remember that this has been almost exclusively highway driving.

So far no problems. Again, thank you for everyone’s help and this entire process was unfortunate given I had to file a warranty dispute to find a solution.

They said they were going to do some diagnostics on the 60 replacement battery to determine what the problem was. I can’t say if they put a 75 battery in to avoid any future problems or as an act of good faith/goodwill.


Rob

 

[MP3Mike]

This time the battery behaved just as a 75kWh battery should. Remember I had a S60 and the first battery Replacement was with a 60kWh battery that performed like a 45kWh battery.

I’ve been getting around 240 miles of rated range charging to 90% but please remember that this has been almost exclusively highway driving.

So they put a 75kWh battery in and didn't lock it to the range for a 60kWh. That seems like a pretty good deal.

I'm glad they finally took care of you.