Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
The Model 3 has a much smaller area to fit the battery and is at a price point where others have reduced the complexity of individual cell active cooling.
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Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
I thought it was 85% the size overall, but the battery would have to scale down more than that envelope.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Why indeed.
And even if true, there is a lot of room to downsize.
The ModelS supports 90 kWh. Starting from an 85% volume reduction there is 90*0.85 = 76.5 kWh capacity space.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
Wheel wells are the same as are many other things like seats. The floor has weird angles too. Floorboard space does not scale linearly with the size of the car.
AZ Desert Driver
Rare combination
I'm not clear on what you are arguing...Seems like you are suggesting that the physics Tesla uses (cooling system) to keep battery healthy for 10+ years should be dropped on the M3 because of initial cost. And your most recent posts indicate that there is no room for good physics because the floor plan has a kink in it.
On the surface, if I understand your position, it seems contradictory to EM goal of producing fine cars. If I am missing your point, please illuminate .
Once Tesla effectively kick-starts EV demand and serious competition within the industry, the mission statement will be fulfilled: "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible." After that point, they would not necessarily need to make "fine cars" or even any cars. To stay in business, they definitely could fall back on their battery tech though.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
Coming to this conversation late but judging from the last few posts there seems to be an argument that the "skateboard" that the battery pack attaches to is significantly smaller than the Model S. Judging from comparisons I have seen the smaller size of the Model 3 three seems to be almost exclusively from the front wheels forward and from the back wheels backward. The center portion of the car seems to be almost the same. I think they will have plenty of room to put whatever size battery pack they want into the Model 3.
Dan
Dan
I would hope they considered this when designing their car and the battery packs together.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
With the modern trend being away from individual cell cooling, I think Tesla could drop it for the Model 3. Here is what supports that opinion:
- The Model 3 is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than the other cars Tesla has sold
- The Model S/X needs to have product differentiation from the Model 3 to keep selling the advanced/expensive Model S/X
- The Model 3 is cheaper (at base price) than the Bolt which dropped individual cell cooling
- The Model 3 has a smaller area to place its battery than the Model S/X
- Lithium-based chemistries are becoming better across a larger temperature range (i.e., LEAF lizard battery)
- It has been announced that the Model 3 will use different batteries than the Model S/X
- The Gigafactory gives Tesla latitude to standardize on any size cell they want as economies of scale no longer require using an industry standard sized cell
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
The problem with doing away with active temperature management of some type is that you can seriously effect the long term health of the battery pack. Just ask early Leaf owners about battery degradation. If you want to make it cheaper that's fine, and will have to happen somewhere but if it is up to me, this is one area I think they can't cut corners on.
Didn't realize that Chevy had dropped it on the Bolt. It was one of the big selling points on my current Volt. That would definitely be a deal breaker if I was looking at a Bolt.
Dan
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
The presumption is that it will be helpful with the new cells used in the Model 3. The modern trend is away from it so I recommend folks be open minded about it.
Somehow Tesla needs to make a profit at a significantly lower price point. I know everyone wants a Model X for $35K, but logic dictates something must be different. Why would anyone buy a 5 seat Model S if a 5 seat Model 3 is the same or better? Model 3 buyers need to come down to reality and stop dreaming.
Somehow Tesla needs to make a profit at a significantly lower price point. I know everyone wants a Model X for $35K, but logic dictates something must be different. Why would anyone buy a 5 seat Model S if a 5 seat Model 3 is the same or better? Model 3 buyers need to come down to reality and stop dreaming.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
With all due respect, I don't think anyone is expecting a Model X for 35K. Of course there will be limits to what Tesla puts in the cheapest base version of the Model 3.
That being said, many, if not most of us that have a reservation have no intention of spending just 35K on their car. We have things we would like to see on our cars and are willing to pay extra for them.
Dan
It has been discussed in length in various threads, including this one: What will separate S from 3?
In any case, you sound a lot like you just want to protect the S for some reason. I'm not sure if that is your intention but that's the feeling I'm getting and it might be the reason I'm finding it hard to understand what your message really is.
What makes you so sure that Tesla won't migrate the S and X also to the new cell design eventually? I believe it was in this thread that someone made guesstimate that the battery compartments were more or less the same sizes.
diamond.g
Active Member
As far as I can tell the bolt has active thermal management for the battery. They are just chilling the bottom of the pack instead of each plate.
AZ Desert Driver
Rare combination
Reeler said: ↑
The modern trend is away from it so I recommend folks be open minded about it.
Is Reeler correct? IS the modern trend away from thermal management? I was lead to believe just the opposite - coolant piped through all Tesla batteries (so far) and the "other guys" have been burned and now are adopting cooling technology.
I really don't know what is fact vs fiction. Is there a trend against cooling?
The modern trend is away from it so I recommend folks be open minded about it.
Is Reeler correct? IS the modern trend away from thermal management? I was lead to believe just the opposite - coolant piped through all Tesla batteries (so far) and the "other guys" have been burned and now are adopting cooling technology.
I really don't know what is fact vs fiction. Is there a trend against cooling?
Don't know, I certainly hope not since my understanding is that (at least with current technology) it really isn't feasible with regards to battery lifetime.
I can already see the situation:
I wonder which will be more convincing...
Edit: fixed wording in imaginary situation
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
The trend is away from cooling each cell. BMW and Chevy are no longer doing this and only cool one side w heat sinks between prismatic cells. The Leaf has no active cooling at all with very little degradation in the most recent packs where 100% charging is mandatory. The Leaf does heat the pack, but not for each cell.
The presumption that the Model 3 will continue the crazy complexity of the Model S/X battery packs is my point. That doesn't mean you will not get 8 years from the battery pack, but you might expect 25% degradation rather than the 15% or whatever they predict on the current design.
@jkk_ I have two Model 3s on order since before the announcement that I attended. I don't like my wife's Model X and don't particularly like the Model S either, but need AWD in an EV to get me snow boarding. I think the battery design for both was a kludge necessary at the time, but is no longer. When you hear that buzz saw of an A/C compressor kick in to cool the pack on a hot day or while charging, you may agree.
The presumption that the Model 3 will continue the crazy complexity of the Model S/X battery packs is my point. That doesn't mean you will not get 8 years from the battery pack, but you might expect 25% degradation rather than the 15% or whatever they predict on the current design.
@jkk_ I have two Model 3s on order since before the announcement that I attended. I don't like my wife's Model X and don't particularly like the Model S either, but need AWD in an EV to get me snow boarding. I think the battery design for both was a kludge necessary at the time, but is no longer. When you hear that buzz saw of an A/C compressor kick in to cool the pack on a hot day or while charging, you may agree.
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