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Beef; I'll miss you most of all....
- Thread starter nwdiver
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- Energy Environment Policy
I'm a red meat eater (in moderation!) and also enjoy veggie burgers. There is a high-end steak place here in Dallas that makes an amazing veggie patty, oddly enough.
beeeerock
Active Member
Several years ago I read (well, scanned - it was a tough slog) a document prepared by the UN's FAO. It discussed essentially the problems with modern agricultural practices and their impact on climate change that have been discussed here. No question about it... meat, especially beef production, is a climate-costly endeavor.
I made changes. Did I become a Vegan or even a Vegetarian? No. But I did reduce my red meat consumption by a huge amount and now, what meat I do consume, is more of a garnish than a main course, if you know what I mean. Chicken is a much larger proportion of the sum total of meat, with some pork and fish in there too.
From what I can see, we've evolved to be omnivores. Our intestinal tract is suited for a varied diet and not really suited to eating as either a pure carnivore or vegetarian. I'm sure some will dispute that, but I'm confident in my conclusion. So will I eat a steak or a burger? Absolutely. But not very often. Some meals will - through no fault of our own - turn out to be vegetarian. But not every night.
I know that Leilani Munter would like us all to go Vegan, but that's just not going to happen. If you think it's difficult to get people out of their ICE vehicles and into superior EV's, just imagine convincing the population of planet earth that bees are abused because we take their honey. 'Vegetarian' would be hard enough, but adding the religion that becomes Vegan is an impossibility. If the planet has to go that way to survive, it's already dead. Going the route I've taken is probably as far as you could push the average person without starting a shooting war. And it would be a huge improvement for the planet over the status quo.
Over the last few years, I've watched an adult child in my house go from Vegetarian to Vegan... and now partially back to Vegetarian. Regular B-12 shots to stay somewhat healthy. Food that looks and tastes like something that should be flushed. A basket of expensive bottles of supplements and so forth. Now requiring video proof of chickens looking happy before going back to eggs - from those chickens only (is DNA testing far behind??)... for the much-missed protein she couldn't get from plants. Food has become a chore for her, both in researching what she needs to maintain a semblance of health and in enjoyment of her meals. She's a biology major, leading her class, so fully capable of understanding the issues and researching the best way to make the diet livable. It's a major undertaking to do right and much of the population wouldn't manage it.
Yup, some (many) people are willing to go that direction and that's good for the planet. But not me. Not to that extent. And I don't see Joe Q. Public embracing the idea any time soon. Push this sort of thing too far, too fast, and there will be serious push-back... the last thing the planet needs.
I made changes. Did I become a Vegan or even a Vegetarian? No. But I did reduce my red meat consumption by a huge amount and now, what meat I do consume, is more of a garnish than a main course, if you know what I mean. Chicken is a much larger proportion of the sum total of meat, with some pork and fish in there too.
From what I can see, we've evolved to be omnivores. Our intestinal tract is suited for a varied diet and not really suited to eating as either a pure carnivore or vegetarian. I'm sure some will dispute that, but I'm confident in my conclusion. So will I eat a steak or a burger? Absolutely. But not very often. Some meals will - through no fault of our own - turn out to be vegetarian. But not every night.
I know that Leilani Munter would like us all to go Vegan, but that's just not going to happen. If you think it's difficult to get people out of their ICE vehicles and into superior EV's, just imagine convincing the population of planet earth that bees are abused because we take their honey. 'Vegetarian' would be hard enough, but adding the religion that becomes Vegan is an impossibility. If the planet has to go that way to survive, it's already dead. Going the route I've taken is probably as far as you could push the average person without starting a shooting war. And it would be a huge improvement for the planet over the status quo.
Over the last few years, I've watched an adult child in my house go from Vegetarian to Vegan... and now partially back to Vegetarian. Regular B-12 shots to stay somewhat healthy. Food that looks and tastes like something that should be flushed. A basket of expensive bottles of supplements and so forth. Now requiring video proof of chickens looking happy before going back to eggs - from those chickens only (is DNA testing far behind??)... for the much-missed protein she couldn't get from plants. Food has become a chore for her, both in researching what she needs to maintain a semblance of health and in enjoyment of her meals. She's a biology major, leading her class, so fully capable of understanding the issues and researching the best way to make the diet livable. It's a major undertaking to do right and much of the population wouldn't manage it.
Yup, some (many) people are willing to go that direction and that's good for the planet. But not me. Not to that extent. And I don't see Joe Q. Public embracing the idea any time soon. Push this sort of thing too far, too fast, and there will be serious push-back... the last thing the planet needs.
I was a vegan for 5 years. Now I reserve meat for the weekends, and even then it is usually 1 meal over the week-end.
I think it is important to not think of reducing or stopping eating meat as giving something up. To me it was always about gaining health -- I felt so much better when I stopped eating meat. When I do eat meat I need to eat portions that are smaller than about the size of a deck of cards -- much smaller than typical servings, or else I feel sluggish and bad in general. I didn't realize how bad meat made me feel until I started doing away with it -- I just thought that was how I was supposed to feel after eating.
I think it is important to not think of reducing or stopping eating meat as giving something up. To me it was always about gaining health -- I felt so much better when I stopped eating meat. When I do eat meat I need to eat portions that are smaller than about the size of a deck of cards -- much smaller than typical servings, or else I feel sluggish and bad in general. I didn't realize how bad meat made me feel until I started doing away with it -- I just thought that was how I was supposed to feel after eating.
I find it's the opposite... carbs tend to give me that sluggish feeling. But each person is different.
Bone-in rib-eye, medium-rare... can't be beaten by any tofurkey.
beeeerock
Active Member
I'm the same way. And if I haven't had at least a garnish of some sort of meat in a meal, I find I'm hungry an hour later and scavenging in the pantry for a bag of something junkish to fill the void. :redface:
I have noticed that there are a plethora of manufactured/processed vegetarian options available named with a play on a meat product (like the Tofurkey you noted). I have yet to see this sort of marketing applied to omnivores... when was the last time you saw a processed meat option masquerading as a vegetable? A juicy red Beetsteak (beef formed to look like a beet)? A Turrot (turkey formed and coloured to look like a carrot)? The reality is, we've evolved to eat a bit of anything and everything - opportunistic omnivores. Going to a Vegetarian or Vegan diet is a conscious choice, be it religious, ethical or political... it goes against our instinctive response to the smell of roasting meat. I see huge value to the planet in going that direction, but I can only reduce my meat consumption, not eliminate it completely. If dinner every night was an ordeal comprised of roots, shoots and astronaut pills, I'd soon question what point there is to living.
But that's me... and I'm grateful for those who have gone meatless, because they ARE helping to reduce the climate change problem.
When I was a kid, dinner consisted of some carefully chosen meat that was artfully seasoned and lovingly prepared and some afterthought stuff that was boiled in a pot.
Now I eat a lot of roots and shoots, and when they are carefully chosen, artfully seasoned and lovingly prepared - they are very very good.
If you make the mistake of just switching meat for some imitation meat substitute to go with your afterthought from the pot, you will likely be dissatisfied.
You can reduce your meat intake - not eliminate it - and put more effort into the colorful things on the plate.
I'd also like to point out that if you take your original sentence and change it to "If driving was an ordeal with a gutless, compromise, range anxiety electric car, I'd soon question what point there is to living" it sounds an awful lot like what gas addicts say. There are almost always alternatives. We know it's true for cars, EVs are not all inferior imitation gas cars - some are - but others can be superior in many ways.
beeeerock
Active Member
As I mentioned further up-thread, I significantly reduced my meat consumption a good decade or more ago, after reading a UN FAO report that put the environmental costs in perspective. Beef appears infrequently, poultry is more common on our table. But all is generally mixed into what we're eating, and doesn't typically appear in big slices occupying a reserved spot on the plate!
We tend to eat dishes that could be described as either 'Mediterranean' or 'South Asian'.My point, poorly made, was that the 'roots, shoots and astronaut pills' is how the typical Canadian and American would view a Vegan diet. It's tough enough to convince them they don't need to commute to work in a lifted diesel one ton pickup... nudging them toward the sort of diet I've been enjoying might be possible... but going all the way to Vegetarian or beyond it to Vegan just isn't going to happen, and I'd be hard pressed to lead by example myself!
We've evolved to be omnivores. Yes, technology can allow a strict Vegan diet to be survivable if followed carefully, but it won't eliminate your instinctive salivary response to the smell of a roasting turkey... :crying:
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Humans have evolved to be omnivores which means that they can eat and survive on any kind of food from meat to grubs to vegetables, nuts and grains. People historically have eaten whatever was available in their environment and they have survived and thrived. This includes people eating exclusively meat (such as the Inuit) and those eating exclusively a vegetable diet (such as much of the Hindu and Buddhist South Asia continent). Food preferences are shaped by what is available in the local environment as well as cultural norms. There is no absolute requirement for any particular kind of food. It all gets digested and used as fuel.As I mentioned further up-thread, I significantly reduced my meat consumption a good decade or more ago, after reading a UN FAO report that put the environmental costs in perspective. Beef appears infrequently, poultry is more common on our table. But all is generally mixed into what we're eating, and doesn't typically appear in big slices occupying a reserved spot on the plate!
My point, poorly made, was that the 'roots, shoots and astronaut pills' is how the typical Canadian and American would view a Vegan diet. It's tough enough to convince them they don't need to commute to work in a lifted diesel one ton pickup... nudging them toward the sort of diet I've been enjoying might be possible... but going all the way to Vegetarian or beyond it to Vegan just isn't going to happen, and I'd be hard pressed to lead by example myself!
We've evolved to be omnivores. Yes, technology can allow a strict Vegan diet to be survivable if followed carefully, but it won't eliminate your instinctive salivary response to the smell of a roasting turkey... :crying:
Some people may have a preference (salivary response) for meat since that is how they were raised but this is not a requirement, it's just a cultural preference and can be changed by necessity or choice.
Many people are considering the negative environmental impact of animal agriculture and are choosing to eat less (or no) meat. This should be encouraged. If you give up meat, it's the equivalent (in terms of greenhouse gasses) of giving up driving an ICE car... this is significant. Most of us here have already made a choice to give up ICE cars, at least in part out of concern for the environment. Some have installed solar panels. It's only logical that some would take the next step to reduce their environmental impact by giving up meat. The are millions (? billions) of people thriving on a vegan diet. There's no requirement for meat to survive and thrive.
For a good exploration of environmental impact of animal agriculture see:
http://www.cowspiracy.com
(Streaming on Netflix)
beeeerock
Active Member
I don't think I'm really disputing that, although in many cases 'thrive' might not be the word I'd use. Living with an adult and dedicated Vegan under my roof, I've noted a few things...
- B12 shots required regularly to maintain energy level.
- Dedication to researching nutrition in the quest for a balanced diet (still not balanced, hence the B12).
- Requirement to head off each day with a bushel of Tupperware filled with all sorts of things, in order to maintain energy level between regular meals (I note that herbivores seem to spend most of their waking hours eating).
- Pooping like a rabbit (her words, not mine - didn't ask and didn't really want to know...) because her digestive tract isn't really long enough to digest pure plant matter adequately (or so the doctor said).
- Refusal to eat honey because it was stolen from bees... etc.
Her choice though, and I won't try to alter her beliefs or behavior. However, she recently went back to eggs out of desperation and soon noted a significant change in her general well-being. But video proof of the chickens running around looking happy was required first. I'm not sure how scalable that is.
So what I'm saying is, I don't see the inhabitants of earth going fully Vegan any time soon. From a climate perspective, yes, we all should. I went as far as I could stomach with meat reductions (didn't even see that pun until after I'd typed it...!), obviously drive an EV... have panels on my roof and heat with geoexchange. But there's a limit to how much I'll give up and my point is, that's also the case for everyone. I've made more changes than most would be willing to make, and I can't go all the way to Vegan... so how would I expect others to do more than reduce their meat intake and especially, red meat? Humans have been eating it for 2 million years and I don't see that stopping much before the day that wolves decide to eat grass and leave the elk alone.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
B12 is the only nutrient which is not available in a pure vegan diet. It's an interesting molecule, very large and complex and difficult to synthesize but it's routinely made by bacteria and then absorbed and passed up the food chain by meat, fish and shellfish. If you follow a Mediterranean diet, you'll get fish and plenty of B12. If you're strictly vegan, you may need a supplement. Most multivitamins have B12 or you can buy B12 tablets. Some people insist on B12 shots and, while the absorption is better, you can get the same effect with the expense of going to the doctor by taking an oral supplement.
I understand that many people love meat and "can't" stop eating it but it would be better for all of us if we limited meat consumption.
B12 doesn't like being in stomach acid so it's better to be absorbed through the walls of the small intestine. Yes, you can get shots. Yes, you can put it under your tongue for a decent absorption rate.
Without B12, the modern human body has a really hard time functioning. The only natural place to get it is meat. Yes, you can find an indigenous tribe that has survived off ONLY plant matter for generations, but they have evolved. I find it interesting that many vegans are all about natural, organic, etc. but in order to stay healthy they need to pop a bunch of pills and take shots to survive on their self-inflicted diet.
If I remember correctly stuff like soy, rice and almond milk (popular w/ vegans and vegetarians) often has added B12. I didn't need to add any to my diet for the 5 years I was a vegan. I seem to remember it being added to lots of foods. I do know vegans that take B12 supplements -- hadn't heard of shots for anything less than severe deficiency (tingling or loss of feeling in extremities).
Canuck
Well-Known Member
The Inuit life expectancy (before European contact resulting in a change in their diet) was 48 years. I don't consider that thriving.
You're better off eating salmon. It's higher in B12 than beef, chicken, turkey, and eggs combined.
Although, if you like clams, just 1-2 of these a day has tons of B12.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Most populations had a much shorter lifespan until the development of public health (sanitation, immunization, etc.).
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Fish oils are much healthier than animal fats.
deonb
Active Member
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