Berlin made cars

[Casss]

I made a quick 'POMA' calculation myself based on a RoRo the size and tonnage of THEBEN/GLOVIS SPLENDOR burning this amount of bunker fuel on a China-Europe journey, and divided by roughly 4000 cars on board. And I didn't even account for the fact that bunker fuel emissions are immensely more toxic than modern petrol in an ICE.
I appreciate there is probably a much more accurate way of doing this and I welcome any refined calculation method to better sense the carbon footprint of a Tesla arriving on our shores shipping-wise.


Of course, that's why I highlighted that I, myself, have never bought a car that was made on another continent.


Absolutely, I have never even remotely floated the idea that an ICE car would be more efficient, just that currently, our Teslas do come with a much larger footprint than anything built on our continent, and therefore they should accelerate all efforts to shift to a local production to bridge this gap, to avoid this probably 15k to 20k miles required to break-even vs an ICE.

And of course I am not even mentioning the rare earth mining impact of batteries sourcing which would move even further down the break-even point. I believe I've read a study mentioning something like 30k miles, assuming that all your charges are coming from 100% renewable electricity, otherwise it's more like 50k...

If you want to take a really deep dive... You're not even factoring in an allowance for the fact that JITM relies on parts shipments from all over the world, regardless of where the car is assembled. Guess where the majority of those parts come from globally? You can probably guess...

These are all stepping stones until we really get cradle to cradle going as something that is adopted by the world on a huge scale. (And a global shipping revolution).

Engineering Explained did an interesting video on this a few years back, and I don't know if his data included shipping, but I think given the sources, it probably did..

 

[WannabeOwner]

I believe I've read a study mentioning something like 30k miles, assuming that all your charges are coming from 100% renewable electricity

Indeed. ... but ... recycling is expecting to get back almost all of it (something like 20kg of freshly mined material required to recycle a battery). So, yes, 1st user is a big hit (and of course we are going to be 1st users for a long time, until the whole fleet is replaced).

Contrast that with 150K miles at 30MPG which is 22 tonnes of refined petroleum ...

I've seen quite a few studies on how long it takes the initial "build materials stuff" to be counteracted, compared to an ICE, and yes the first year or two (studies vary ...) is a negative, but thereafter positive ... and that's presumably not taking into account the grid getting greener over the lifetime of an EV

 

[Unclepaul]

It is Elon's stated policy that it is best to make the cars in the continent that they will be sold. While he is ramping up scale, this will not be always possible, but he would be in agreement with the OP.

Reality is that due to environmental, economic and political roadblocks, this is far easier said than done.

Germany and California are two examples of the headwinds an automaker will face, making vehicles locally.

I would imagine that Tesla would have strong motivations to simply close the Fremont factory, and move to where they are more welcome.

 

[GRiLLA]

Of course, that's why I highlighted that I, myself, have never bought a car that was made on another continent.

However the 30,000 litres of fuel used in the life of an ICE car is quite likely to have come from other continent and been shipped by sea.

Teslas do come with a much larger footprint than anything built on our continent

I'm not very sure that's a safe assumption, firstly although cars may be made in Europe it doesn't mean that subcomponents don't come from the far east. Certainly most other EVs have batteries coming from China, and that's a large proportion of the weight. Also Tesla own production lines almost certainly consume less energy than more traditional methods of car production, for example the new 4680 cells will require 70% less energy to make than existing.

And of course I am not even mentioning the rare earth mining impact of batteries sourcing which would move even further down the break-even point.

A Tesla has about 30kg of Lithium, and 15kgs of Cobalt (unless it's a SR+ which is Cobalt free). The environmental impact of that is utterly impossible to equate to the 30,000 litres of refined oil extracted for a petrol car. It's so small it's not even going to be relevant. While there are concerns about the welfare of artisan miners in DRC it's complex to fix (it's how they make money!).

I believe I've read a study mentioning something like 30k miles, assuming that all your charges are coming from 100% renewable electricity, otherwise it's more like 50k...

Different studies come up with different numbers depending on which answer they want to promote. Those figures are perhaps based on a Volvo report that got itself tied in knots trying to be fair and assumed that their equivalent ICE car achieved it's stated WLTP efficiency at all times, and didn't adequately consider the carbon cost of extracting, transporting and refining petrol. It still showed over it's lifetime the EV produced half the CO2 as their petrol.

Tesla's published figure is 6,500 miles for break even, but they are comparing against a 24mpg car as is typical in the US. The truth lies somewhere between the two, 'about a year' is as good a guess as any. Given it should be clear to anyone that all cars are going to last more than a year it's clear that if you are buying a car then an EV is the right choice by a very large margin.

 

[Jason71]

A Tesla has about 30kg of Lithium, and 15kgs of Cobalt (unless it's a SR+ which is Cobalt free). The environmental impact of that is utterly impossible to equate to the 30,000 litres of refined oil extracted for a petrol car. It's so small it's not even going to be relevant. While there are concerns about the welfare of artisan miners in DRC it's complex to fix (it's how they make money!).

Are you sure about the Cobalt figure. Sounds about right for an early model S but these days I thought the M3/Y LR/P packs were down to less than 5kg's per car?

 

[GRiLLA]

Are you sure about the Cobalt figure. Sounds about right for an early model S but these days I thought the M3/Y LR/P packs were down to less than 5kg's per car?

Agreed, I was using an old number. Reports also say that VW ID3 has 5x more Cobalt than Tesla.

 

[Jason71]

Agreed, I was using an old number. Reports also say that VW ID3 has 5x more Cobalt than Tesla.

I knew Tesla had been steadily reducing it but had no idea there would be that much disparity that's huge

 

[Peter 224]

I knew Tesla had been steadily reducing it but had no idea there would be that much disparity that's huge

It would be interesting to compare the cobalt quantity per kWh battery capacity for all the major battery makers. As well as the environmental reasons for ditching cobalt, it is expensive, another very good reason to use a cheaper, less polluting element.

 

[tesfinn78]

Ordered silver/black LR on 9th June and got Nov-Dec estimate. Changed it to Performance because of all those positive talks on Berlin P version, now estimate is still same, EOY. However, I read that Berlin produces white/black only so far, so will I get my silver from Shanghai? Can I request a pushback until Berlin produces other colours?

I´ve driven both - MIB MYP and MIC LR with 19", the latter suspension was absolute disaster to drive.
I really want Berlin made car, so probably would make sense changing to white and wrap it?

 

[Jason71]

Ordered silver/black LR on 9th June and got Nov-Dec estimate. Changed it to Performance because of all those positive talks on Berlin P version, now estimate is still same, EOY. However, I read that Berlin produces white/black only so far, so will I get my silver from Shanghai? Can I request a pushback until Berlin produces other colours?

I´ve driven both - MIB MYP and MIC LR with 19", the latter suspension was absolute disaster to drive.
I really want Berlin made car, so probably would make sense changing to white and wrap it?

Shanghai have not shipped MYP to europe and has never built RHD MYP. However they do build MYP so they have all of the parts necessary to make a RHD P so I guess it is possible. I am pretty sure the plan was for all UK MYP to come from Berlin but if the ramp up is going badly that could change.
Yes you can request a delay in delivery. Tesla are usually fine with that so if you are that opposed to a China car and it turns out that is what happens then yes that is an option.

 

[MrT3]

Ordered silver/black LR on 9th June and got Nov-Dec estimate. Changed it to Performance because of all those positive talks on Berlin P version, now estimate is still same, EOY. However, I read that Berlin produces white/black only so far, so will I get my silver from Shanghai? Can I request a pushback until Berlin produces other colours?

I´ve driven both - MIB MYP and MIC LR with 19", the latter suspension was absolute disaster to drive.
I really want Berlin made car, so probably would make sense changing to white and wrap it?

You could wait until you get a VIN allocated which would confirm the country of manufacture, and then if it was MIC say you are away on the delivery dates offered which will reallocate the vehicle to someone else and you wait for the next batch when hopefully MIG is available.

I'd like to think that Tesla will be able to start spraying vehicles in other colours within the next 4 months - it shouldn't be that difficult for the most advanced paint shop in the world!

Suspension changes could also be rollout out worldwide by the time your vehicle is due so a MIC vehicle would be fine.


As always with Tesla lots of unknowns. All you can do is keep yourself informed via these forums and news sites so you have an idea of what you might receive if you accepted a delivery slot.

 

[ACarneiro]

I would very, VERY much prefer a MIG car as well. Not only due to it possibly being better in some aspects but for a different number of principles.
Thank you for that suggestion, I will definitely follow your advice

 

[Casss]

Suspension changes could also be rollout out worldwide by the time your vehicle is due so a MIC vehicle would be fine.

Given what we're seeing in the US, my suspicion is this is only a matter of time. Probably some sort of service note going out to all MIC MYLR owners offering a softer damping / spring set up if they want it using one of the revised damper / coil parts that are already available in the US.

Which would make people's efforts to work around this futile, but as usual, no timeline or confirmation on anything really so I don't blame people for looking to other options.

 

[Toblerone]

Given what we're seeing in the US, my suspicion is this is only a matter of time. Probably some sort of service note going out to all MIC MYLR owners offering a softer damping / spring set up if they want it using one of the revised damper / coil parts that are already available in the US.

Which would make people's efforts to work around this futile, but as usual, no timeline or confirmation on anything really so I don't blame people for looking to other options.

What are you referring to in the US?
I’m not aware of parts changes propagating across factories, very much the opposite.

I doubt there will be a retrospective suspension offering for MIC MYs.
They’ve already sold the car and are busy enough selling everything they can make to bother with this kind of after service (that isn’t just a software update).

Of course Tesla could listen to the feedback and make the change and perhaps this is what’s happened in Berlin, but I wouldn’t bet on it happening in Shanghai, as I believe Germany are using regional parts suppliers.

I reckon it’s more likely we will get Berlin made cars before suspension changes in Shanghai.

Of course I’d really like a Berlin car with nice suspension, coloured paint, gigacasting & 4680 structural pack.
When all of that is confirmed I’ll prob order one and trade the MIC car I’m currently waiting for.

Edit: clarity

 

[Durzel]

Parts change all the time. There won't be retrofitting of modified parts to older cars, though it might be possible for owners to purchase and retrofit the parts themselves (assuming Tesla will even sell it to them with shortages being what they are).

People were happy to buy the car "as is" when they bought it. They weren't promised some reworked suspension.

 

[Casss]

What are you referring to in the US?
I’m not aware of parts changes propagating across factories, very much the opposite.

I doubt there will be a retrospective suspension offering for MIC MYs.
They’ve already sold the car and are busy enough selling everything they can make to bother with this kind of after service (that isn’t just a software update).

Of course Tesla could listen to the feedback and make the change and perhaps this is what’s happened in Berlin, but I wouldn’t bet on it happening in Shanghai, as I believe Germany are using regional parts suppliers.

I reckon it’s more likely we will get Berlin made cars before suspension changes in Shanghai.

Of course I’d really like a Berlin car with nice suspension, coloured paint, gigacasting & 4680 structural pack.
When all of that is confirmed I’ll prob order one and trade the MIC car I’m currently waiting for.

Edit: clarity

Yeah, to clarify on this and to @Durzel 's comment, mine doesn't need fixing. I'd turn down a parts change because the setup is great for me as is.

In the US, service centres are offering to fit the newer revisions of the springs / dampers to customers who want it done. Now to be completely crystal clear, it's still disputed what the exact difference is because as usual nothing confirmatory from Tesla which is frustrating.

However, just guesstimating and surmising here a bit: there are other reasons you would do a parts revision for spring / damper, but they're on revision F / H now on some newly produced Y's over there, which leads me to believe that they are experimenting with softening the ride for some markets. It would be highly unusual to go through that many revisions for those parts due to defects or engineering concerns alone. Also, some owners over there have said that their SC recommended a specific part revision which softened the ride, specifically on the rear.

I would also guess that Tesla would not want to approach this as a model-wide recall, rather it's something they may keep on the quiet side as a resolution for those who shout the loudest about not liking the earlier part numbers in the UK / EU.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

And of course I am not even mentioning the rare earth mining impact of batteries sourcing which would move even further down the break-even point. I believe I've read a study mentioning something like 30k miles, assuming that all your charges are coming from 100% renewable electricity, otherwise it's more like 50k...

There are no rare earth metals in lithium-ion batteries. Those were used in NiMH batteries.

 

[Zakalwe]

There are no rare earth metals in lithium-ion batteries. Those were used in NiMH batteries.

True.
There are rare earths in the motors though.

 

[WllXM]

There are no rare earth metals in lithium-ion batteries. Those were used in NiMH batteries.

Not necessarily mentioning REEs, but Cobalt mining still used for Li-Ion packs (except for SR+ M3s which are LFP), is not particularly earth-friendly, don't you think?

 

[Zakalwe]

Not necessarily mentioning REEs, but Cobalt mining still used for Li-Ion packs (except for SR+ M3s which are LFP), is not particularly earth-friendly, don't you think?

VW used twice the amount of cobalt last year than Tesla and still made fewer cars. Never mind the amount of cobalt used in making stainless steel.
Funnily, no one ever complained about the amount of cobalt used in the desulpherisation of fossil fuels. Until very recent years, this was the main use of cobalt worldwide.