Best anti-selling of the Model 3 yet - CPO Model S for 35k

[Canuck]

You seem to not know what an Early Model S is.

2012 - early
2013 - early
2014 - not early.

By 2014 Tesla had revised so many things on the Model S. Nearly everything had changed vs the first 2012.

Take a look at Model S - Options by Year - Tesla Motors Club Wiki and keep in mind for every change documented there Tesla changed dozens if not hundreds more behind the scenes (more reliable parts by switching entirely or by revisions). Seperate threads exist for battery pack revisions, motor revisions, etcetera.

Just off the top of my head I'd say:

2012 - early = suspension not finalized (alignment/wear issues), no parking sensors, no folding side mirrors (or maybe just not powered), first gen door handles which were problematic (failed often). Original 12v battery failed more so than current 12v (not that Tesla has ever totally fixed this issue but it was worse with the original part).

I honestly don't know where to divide 2013. That year had a lot of flux, probably worth breaking that out by quarters with the trend getting better as the year went along.

I ordered on December 7 2013, and received my car on March 7, 2014, so I followed all of the issues you raise above in detail.

Here's my reply to all the issues you raise in support of your position:

Suspension issues were blown out of proportion by Pete Cordaro -- there's long threads about it here. But you can read a summary here: Tesla Model S suspension and NDA situation: here are the facts [Updated]

This is not a problem with 2012 to 2013 vehicles.

Folding mirrors and parking sensors were added just before I got my vehicle. There were no problems with earlier vehicles in this regard. It was an upgraded feature. That's like saying my car has a problem with AP when it doesn't have AP.

Yes, the door handles were a problem and were revised but that's hardly "everything". If buying an early CPO people should inquire about the door handles to see they have been upgraded. I bet most have been replaced under warranty.

The traction battery pack was upgraded to faster charging but again that's an upgrade and not a problem.

My 12volt battery failed after two years -- it's still a problem -- but again that's hardly "everything".

Do you own a 2012/13 Tesla to compare with a later Model so that your comment that "Nearly everything had changed" is from first hand experience? If not, what is the basis of your opinion? The Wiki list of "Model S - Options by Year" is just that - options. It doesn't support your position that early Model S vehicles are riddled with problems that required a complete revamping of the vehicle.

 

[mmd]

Optimistically, looking at the customer deposit number from Q1 shareholder letter, Tesla has about 400k M3 reservations at the end of Q1. Elon has said, Tesla will build around 50K M3 in 2017 and 500k total cars in 2018. It seems everyone on M3 waiting list will get their car delivered within next year. CPO delivery times can be couple of months also. So why bother buying an used Model S for a year? Had Tesla shown these cards a year ago, there would've been some point to buy for ~2 years of ownership.

For trying out super charger enabled road trips, there are many Teslas on Turo.

 

[ChrgdTeCHick]

I ordered on December 7 2013, and received my car on March 7, 2014, so I followed all of the issues you raise above in detail.

Here's my reply to all the issues you raise in support of your position:

Suspension issues were blown out of proportion by Pete Cordaro -- there's long threads about it here. But you can read a summary here: Tesla Model S suspension and NDA situation: here are the facts [Updated]

This is not a problem with 2012 to 2013 vehicles.

Folding mirrors and parking sensors were added just before I got my vehicle. There were no problems with earlier vehicles in this regard. It was an upgraded feature. That's like saying my car has a problem with AP when it doesn't have AP.

Yes, the door handles were a problem and were revised but that's hardly "everything". If buying an early CPO people should inquire about the door handles to see they have been upgraded. I bet most have been replaced under warranty.

The traction battery pack was upgraded to faster charging but again that's an upgrade and not a problem.

My 12volt battery failed after two years -- it's still a problem -- but again that's hardly "everything".

Do you own a 2012/13 Tesla to compare with a later Model so that your comment that "Nearly everything had changed" is from first hand experience? If not, what is the basis of your opinion? The Wiki list of "Model S - Options by Year" is just that - options. It doesn't support your position that early Model S vehicles are riddled with problems that required a complete revamping of the vehicle.

Awesome response!

My ICE batteries have died in 2 maybe 3 years max from brand new ICE's. Its a Florida thing apparently for them to die more often here. Wondering how long my S' will last?

 

[ChrgdTeCHick]

That's probably why we see Tesla clearing them out, although a Model 3 with AP will likely be more expensive. Then again, with the EV rebates down south on new vehicles, perhaps not. We'll have to wait and see but Tesla is not taking any chances on being stuck with a lot of inventory of older vehicles, which tells us something.

The rebate will be dependent on your income and various other tax specifics, but for someone like me, I wouldn't end up with much or any of the rebate with everything I can add to reduce my tax load. That is likely going to be the same for a lot of the M3 buyers. It may be beneficial to lease an M3 since the total rebate is deducted since the leaser gets the rebate in those cases though. Even more if you are in a state without any EV incentives too.

 

[azred]

Awesome response!

My ICE batteries have died in 2 maybe 3 years max from brand new ICE's. Its a Florida thing apparently for them to die more often here. Wondering how long my S' will last?

It's a heat thing. Same problem here in Phoenix. I charge my S at 3 am in the summer. Can't hurt to avoid the heat of the day. No battery likes heat.

 

[dhanson865]

Here's my reply to all the issues you raise in support of your position:

Forest / Trees

You seem to think I was trying to detail all the possible issues. I was generalizing. I'm not going to get into a never ending debate with a lawyer that wants to nitpick.

You obviously think 2012 and 2013 were more reliable than the general consensus. Don't let me get in the way of your opinion.

But tell me this why the heck did you bring up the 2016 NHTSA suspension article when I was talking about 2012 and 2013 cars. You say you read TMC back in 2013? You don't remember all the threads about tire wear issues? You think everyone here made that up and quotes like this from CR is pie in the sky?

Tesla Reliability Doesn’t Match Its High Performance

Other problem areas include:

• Inoperable wipers
• Leaking battery cooling pumps
• Out-of-alignment trunk and hatchback latches
  
• Persistent wheel-alignment issues

I'm not going to go back and find all the threads from 2013 to document this for you. You don't pay me an hourly rate to do so.

 

[dhanson865]

I'm no fan of CR, the link I posted above was just a quick pick from the first page of a google search. Search TMC for terms like toe or camber if you want to find threads like this:

Checked Alignment: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

or

Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires

which are just a tiny tiny portion of the vague memory of all the threads I remember reading in 2013.

 

[Canuck]

I'm not going to get into a never ending debate with a lawyer that wants to nitpick.

Nitpick? I responded to each issue you raised. There was no nitpicking. But when someone says they want to end a debate it's usually because they can't support their argument and not for whatever other reason they make up.

But I did see you went on to list any other problems you can find. I won't "nitpick" those except to say that I never said there were no problems. Rather, I took issue with this statement:

Nearly everything had changed vs the first 2012.

That's simply pure hogwash.

As to Consumer Reports, here's the most important statistic in my view:

Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction

91% "Would buy again" -- which beats all other vehicle makers -- most by a long shot. That number would not be that high if the 2012 and 2013 vehicles were so riddled with problems that "nearly everything had changed" as you claim. I've spoken to quite a few 2012/13 Tesla owners who are very happy with the quality of their vehicles, both on this forum and while at Superchargers. You base your argument on posts of people complaining about problems here. You do know it's rare for someone to come to a forum and post "no problems -- all is fine", right?

The problem with Tesla is quality control issues, most of which arise at the end of a quarter when they are pushing vehicles out too fast to meet sales goals.

 

[Zaphod]

The rebate will be dependent on your income and various other tax specifics, but for someone like me, I wouldn't end up with much or any of the rebate with everything I can add to reduce my tax load. That is likely going to be the same for a lot of the M3 buyers. It may be beneficial to lease an M3 since the total rebate is deducted since the leaser gets the rebate in those cases though. Even more if you are in a state without any EV incentives too.

Unfortunately that is not how Tesla does their leases. I guess it could change with the 3, but not sure it would. Tesla incorporates the credit within the residual value at the end of the lease. While it still benefits the leasee, I think most would like to see the credit go towards the cap cost reduction.

 

[mmd]

Edmunds also did a long term test of 2013 Model S. Found quite a few issues. Not sure they tested 2014 or 2015.

2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Wrap-Up | Edmunds

 

[ChrgdTeCHick]

Unfortunately that is not how Tesla does their leases. I guess it could change with the 3, but not sure it would. Tesla incorporates the credit within the residual value at the end of the lease. While it still benefits the leasee, I think most would like to see the credit go towards the cap cost reduction.

Isn't it the same then? Whether you take away $7500 from the total or add $7500 to the residual, you still pay $7500 less. Or do they incorporate it but it doesn't end up equalling to $7500.

 

[cab]

These really are smoking deals. The reality is that a 3 or 4 year old base Model S 60 w/o AP is a lot closer to a brand new P100DL than most folks would care to admit. This isn't really unusual. I mean back in the early 2000s my wife had a 2001 BMW 530i and I had a 2002 BMW M5 - both were great cars and were a lot more alike than different (heck, the biggest difference in 90% of the drive down the road was that the M5 was a stick).

I picked up a CPO P85+ last Summer for less than half of its cost brand new and these new CPO prices still make me envious.

 

[Zaphod]

Isn't it the same then? Whether you take away $7500 from the total or add $7500 to the residual, you still pay $7500 less. Or do they incorporate it but it doesn't end up equalling to $7500.

I haven't actually ran the numbers, but I seem to recall that it doesn't really translate to getting the full benefit of the $7500. I'm sure there are other threads here than probably could explain it better. Will see if I can find any.