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Best Charger for Condo?

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I sit on the board of directors for a condo and we had an electrical company come by today for a walk-through.

They have done many condo EV installations in our city and are quite the reputable company.

It looks like they use rebranded EverCharge units, which are networked and can do load-sharing, etc. Condo would pay for the transformers, panels, etc. and then residents pay for the wire run to their parking spot and for the charger itself (approx. $5k for the resident)

On top of that, there is a $15/mo. fee for the service + electrical usage of course.

The whole proposition seems a bit steep to me so I'm wondering if anyone has experience with other solutions for condo EV charging deployment?

Thanks!
 
Ouch. I'd have a hard time paying $5k + $15/mo + usage.

Plus the infrastructure costs that HOA is picking up (and billing back).

That would pay for a whole lot of free electricity.

I think would be a whole lot better off with the new Tesla WC that allows ganging 15 units and charging an installation charge plus a flat monthly fee.
 
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Ouch. I'd have a hard time paying $5k + $15/mo + usage.

Plus the infrastructure costs that HOA is picking up (and billing back).

That would pay for a whole lot of free electricity.

I think would be a whole lot better off with the new Tesla WC that allows ganging 15 units and charging an installation charge plus a flat monthly fee.

Thanks brkaus! Those were my thoughts as well. I think the issue with installing the Tesla units is that people may have different charging needs/vehicles...so they want something likely J1772 that will support all vehicles.
 
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Thanks brkaus! Those were my thoughts as well. I think the issue with installing the Tesla units is that people may have different charging needs/vehicles...so they want something likely J1772 that will support all vehicles.

I agree with the Tesla specific concern! But it is a great feature set for the price point.

What is your electricity price there?
 
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Even a 14-30 is more than enough for nightly charging if that's available within a garaged unit. Otherwise I think 5k is too steep and someones trying to make quite some margin off these. 1500 to 2k would be my max personally. I wouldn't charge much more than cost. That residual monthly will pay for itself quickly enough and the unit's will hold better value long term.
 
I sit on the board of directors for a condo and we had an electrical company come by today for a walk-through.

They have done many condo EV installations in our city and are quite the reputable company.

It looks like they use rebranded EverCharge units, which are networked and can do load-sharing, etc. Condo would pay for the transformers, panels, etc. and then residents pay for the wire run to their parking spot and for the charger itself (approx. $5k for the resident)

On top of that, there is a $15/mo. fee for the service + electrical usage of course.

The whole proposition seems a bit steep to me so I'm wondering if anyone has experience with other solutions for condo EV charging deployment?

Thanks!

What kind of condo is it? Is this a multi-story parking garage? Is your electrical service 480/277v three phase?

A friend in Seattle did this same thing.

Their solution was to take a spare breaker (400a?) off the building main switch gear (480v) and run it through a set of stacked panels (on multiple floors of the garage - passing through from one panel to the next). Then when residents wanted to install charging they would pay for the conduit from those stacked panels to their spot and they would buy their own 480/240v step down transformer bolted to the wall/ceiling in their spot (they are pretty small).

Each user pays a monthly fee for power and they just don't bother metering it since power is so cheap in Seattle that the overhead of some kind of system to track it or labor to bill it just makes no sense.

This provided a great incremental way to build out EV charging and it let each person chose what kind of EVSE they wanted and what amperage they wanted to pay for. Running the wire to the parking spots at 480v is also much more efficient as it does not require as large conduit/wire and it can go farther distances without voltage drop.

The commercial EVSE market is a racket right now...
 
What kind of condo is it? Is this a multi-story parking garage? Is your electrical service 480/277v three phase?

A friend in Seattle did this same thing.

Their solution was to take a spare breaker (400a?) off the building main switch gear (480v) and run it through a set of stacked panels (on multiple floors of the garage - passing through from one panel to the next). Then when residents wanted to install charging they would pay for the conduit from those stacked panels to their spot and they would buy their own 480/240v step down transformer bolted to the wall/ceiling in their spot (they are pretty small).

Each user pays a monthly fee for power and they just don't bother metering it since power is so cheap in Seattle that the overhead of some kind of system to track it or labor to bill it just makes no sense.

This provided a great incremental way to build out EV charging and it let each person chose what kind of EVSE they wanted and what amperage they wanted to pay for. Running the wire to the parking spots at 480v is also much more efficient as it does not require as large conduit/wire and it can go farther distances without voltage drop.

The commercial EVSE market is a racket right now...

Thanks eprosenx!

Yes, the building has 3 levels of underground parking. Not sure what the electrical service is, but we had a load test done last year and apparently have enough capacity for 70 EV's.

I believe the solution proposed by the electrical co. was to do exactly what you mentioned - run the stacked panels on each floor of parking and then the resident pays for the run from that central panel to their spot.

I think the exorbitant cost comes from the custom/networked system they want to install - all the chargers will be networked and there is a backend service calculating the usage and billing the resident directly, saving management from having to do any work.

Since you have direct experience with this, what do you estimate (very roughly of course) those costs would be? i.e. for each stacked panel, the per foot of conduit to the parking spot and the step down transformer?

I agree, companies are running a racket trying to gouge users as it's such an early-adopter market!

Thanks so much!
 
To be fair, those companies are in a tough position. They have R&D, manufacturing, sales & support cost plus the desire to make a profit on a device that, if placed in a private parking spot, will be dispensing between $20-$100 (perhaps $40 on average) worth of product per month.

Of course the fair thing is to meter every drop, but the costs of the infrastructure (and overhead and profit) dominate the equation vs the cost of product being sold.

If capacity is there for 70 spots * 50a service w/o load balancing the easy way seams like the best way. But then what happens when the 71st person shows up wanting an outlet many years from now...

No good answer that I can see.
 
Thanks eprosenx!

Yes, the building has 3 levels of underground parking. Not sure what the electrical service is, but we had a load test done last year and apparently have enough capacity for 70 EV's.

I believe the solution proposed by the electrical co. was to do exactly what you mentioned - run the stacked panels on each floor of parking and then the resident pays for the run from that central panel to their spot.

I think the exorbitant cost comes from the custom/networked system they want to install - all the chargers will be networked and there is a backend service calculating the usage and billing the resident directly, saving management from having to do any work.

Since you have direct experience with this, what do you estimate (very roughly of course) those costs would be? i.e. for each stacked panel, the per foot of conduit to the parking spot and the step down transformer?

I agree, companies are running a racket trying to gouge users as it's such an early-adopter market!

Thanks so much!

I have asked my friend for all the specs and costs, but he is pretty busy so I will see what he gets back to me. ;-)

One difference about my solution may be that instead of putting in one big transformer (that takes 480v down to 208v), each person getting service would have to add their own. This may be slightly less efficient or add slightly to costs (but it is offset by smaller wire), however, the key thing is that it lets you incrementalize the spend as folks get EV's.

Note that I think they did one meter on the entire system so that the HOA would know how much EV charging was costing overall so that they could ensure that non-EV users don't end up subsidizing the solution.

To be fair, those companies are in a tough position. They have R&D, manufacturing, sales & support cost plus the desire to make a profit on a device that, if placed in a private parking spot, will be dispensing between $20-$100 (perhaps $40 on average) worth of product per month.

Of course the fair thing is to meter every drop, but the costs of the infrastructure (and overhead and profit) dominate the equation vs the cost of product being sold.

If capacity is there for 70 spots * 50a service w/o load balancing the easy way seams like the best way. But then what happens when the 71st person shows up wanting an outlet many years from now...

No good answer that I can see.

Yeah, so the issue here is one of scale. We have not yet hit full widespread adoption on this stuff and so costs are still high. As volumes ramp, the tech will evolve and costs will go down.

So in this case, I would ensure that there was breaker panel space to eventually provide EV charging at EVERY parking spot (even if there is not enough overall capacity).

You might structure it such that folks sign something that says "yes, we know that in the future the HOA will require us to all move to some networked charging unit in order to allow additional residents to add EV charging without having to upgrade our main electrical service". You could also write it such that it says "you are limited to 15a of 240v power" but for now you can use more than that until capacity fills up. At that point you either have to hard limit your EVSE to 15a, OR switch to a networked EVSE that can manage from the total available pool of unused capacity.

Basically, right now I advise folks to spend money on conduit and wiring. That stuff has decades and decades of lifespan. EV charging units right now are evolving rapidly and so I am not convinced of their lifespan. I would plan on swapping out the EVSE units in 5-7 years probably if you deployed some system today.

You don't have to solve fully for the 71st person today - you just need to have a plan to solve for it down the road.
 
Yeah, I think one of the issues will be with paying the corporation back for the electricity used, but I think a simple Wh meter attached to it should suffice...

Simple is in the eye of the beholder, but there are many under $500 submeters that could be used. But I wouldn't underestimate the effort to manage and bill the electricity measured by those meters. It has to be monitored, tracked, billed, received, and audited. Not difficult, but has to be addressed.
 
Simple is in the eye of the beholder, but there are many under $500 submeters that could be used.
But I wouldn't underestimate the effort to manage and bill the electricity measured by those meters.
It has to be monitored, tracked, billed, received, and audited. Not difficult, but has to be addressed.
In my case, in my apartment building, I was able to add a connection box next to my electrical meter.
So I was able to branch out a line going to my charger, allowing me to get billed directly using ToU.

For Condo owners, if they also own their private parking spot, having a dedicated power line connected
to their own meter would be another possibility and might be simpler than installing a bank of chargers.
However, in a case of a three level parking this might be to be difficult.
 
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Yes, the building has 3 levels of underground parking. Not sure what the electrical service is, but we had a load test done last year and apparently have enough capacity for 70 EV's.

I think the exorbitant cost comes from the custom/networked system they want to install - all the chargers will be networked and there is a backend service calculating the usage and billing the resident directly, saving management from having to do any work.

Thanks so much!

Is there a reason why you need to have all of the parking spaces randomly wired instead of installing a single panel and electrifying the spaces near it? It would certainly cost you less if you simply installed 70 parking spaces with 70 outlets, and restricted them to the amount of power that makes that work. Or install them 20 at a time.

The spaces are probably coveted, but they are not "near" to the units since they are underground. Usually people understand if there is a preference for EV spaces due to the need for electrical services.

I think the prices that were quoted are fairly reasonable for what you are asking, certainly a bit overpriced, but you probably have no competition.

When you consider $5,000 installation (that is per-unit, but not including your transformers), divide that by 0.26 per kwh or whatever your rate, and that equals 19,230 kwh. If your average EV uses 4,000 kwh a year, that is equal to 5 years worth of charging. Plus $900 for the monthly fee over 5 years. So if you can bill for an estimate the max/average a user can charge and bill them, you all save a lot.

Wouldn't it make sense, instead of 5k per user and 15$ a month, to simply split the bill evenly among EV users?
 
Is there a reason why you need to have all of the parking spaces randomly wired instead of installing a single panel and electrifying the spaces near it? It would certainly cost you less if you simply installed 70 parking spaces with 70 outlets, and restricted them to the amount of power that makes that work. Or install them 20 at a time.

The spaces are probably coveted, but they are not "near" to the units since they are underground. Usually people understand if there is a preference for EV spaces due to the need for electrical services.

I think the prices that were quoted are fairly reasonable for what you are asking, certainly a bit overpriced, but you probably have no competition.

When you consider $5,000 installation (that is per-unit, but not including your transformers), divide that by 0.26 per kwh or whatever your rate, and that equals 19,230 kwh. If your average EV uses 4,000 kwh a year, that is equal to 5 years worth of charging. Plus $900 for the monthly fee over 5 years. So if you can bill for an estimate the max/average a user can charge and bill them, you all save a lot.

Wouldn't it make sense, instead of 5k per user and 15$ a month, to simply split the bill evenly among EV users?

Things get complex in a large building. And there is a lot of variability. For example, in the condo I used to own (with about 190 units) each parking spot was deeded to the condo owner. So changing spots is doable, but involves legal work. As to capacity, a 50a charging circuit basically doubles the electrical requirement for each unit (though not for the building as a whole). And there would be a huge peak in demand when people got home, plugged in their cars, AND cranked up the electricity usage in their living units. I'd be surprised if many building had enough excess capacity to allow even 20% adoption.

Of course, we're a long way from 20% adoption. But the managing boards in these condos have to look ahead. They can't invest in infrastructure that will just benefit a few residents - only to turn down others later.

The condo I'm in now is very small - 7 units. We have a detached, common garage with 50a service to supply 7 garage door openers, lights, and outlets. My plan - if I can get other owners to agree - is to put in a 20a 220v circuit with a submeter for my charging. We'd read the submeter manually and I'd write a check for my usage. If a 2nd owner wants to charge, I'd downgrade my circuit to 15a. If a third wants to charge, than we have to increase the overall capacity of the garage - which will be expensive unless we have 4-5 charging circuits. Not likely for years.

It's easy to do on an exception basis. And some condos may be able to make it available to all, but I think they are relatively few unless very new.
 
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My plan - if I can get other owners to agree - is to put in a 20a 220v circuit with a submeter for my charging. We'd read the submeter manually and I'd write a check for my usage. If a 2nd owner wants to charge, I'd downgrade my circuit to 15a. If a third wants to charge, than we have to increase the overall capacity of the garage - which will be expensive unless we have 4-5 charging circuits. Not likely for years.

It's easy to do on an exception basis. And some condos may be able to make it available to all, but I think they are relatively few unless very new.

Good luck with that!

What needs to be done, maybe is for the electric companies to provide sub-meters and take it right off the bill, add it to yours.
 
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Good luck with that!

What needs to be done, maybe is for the electric companies to provide sub-meters and take it right off the bill, add it to yours.

May not be too difficult getting my neighbors to agree (for a couple of reasons). Getting the electric company to install, manage, and bill for sub-meters - when they can't even to time-of-day metering yet - would be impossible.
 
Finally making a *bit* of progress trying to get charging installed in our condo parking spot for the M3.

The building manager said the easiest would be to take power from the overhead fluorescent lighting unit as we switched to LED lighting a few years back, so the load on the panel is way less than it used to be.

The fixture is bring fed from a standard Canadian 347/600V panel.

I'm pretty sure the TMC only supports up to 240V, so we either need:

(a) a J1772 charger than can accept the higher voltage
(b) a stepdown transformer to convert to 208V for the TMC

Does anyone have experience with this or can point to some links for either solution?

Thanks!
 
Finally making a *bit* of progress trying to get charging installed in our condo parking spot for the M3.

The building manager said the easiest would be to take power from the overhead fluorescent lighting unit as we switched to LED lighting a few years back, so the load on the panel is way less than it used to be.

The fixture is bring fed from a standard Canadian 347/600V panel.

I'm pretty sure the TMC only supports up to 240V, so we either need:

(a) a J1772 charger than can accept the higher voltage
(b) a stepdown transformer to convert to 208V for the TMC

Does anyone have experience with this or can point to some links for either solution?

Thanks!
Yeah, a step down transformer would work.
The max a gen 3 wall connector (and LR TM3) can handle is a 60A circuit, 48A charging, could set it up for a lower max though.
A single phase 15kW for one port is CAD $1,800 or so: 17104 - Q015PEKF - 15kVA 1 Phase 60Hz 600 V Pri x 120/240 V Sec Hammond Encapsulated Distribution Transformer, Copper
Three phase 600 to 208 Y would need to be 45kW for 3 wall connectors (could do more with their sharing feature): $6k: 17104 - P045PBKF - 45kVA 3 Phase 60Hz 600 D V Pri x 208Y/120 V Sec Hammond Power Solutions Distribution Transformer, Copper

Other brand, $2k CAD or so (aluminium windings and looks like it runs hotter): https://store.maddoxtransformer.com/products/3-phase-600v-delta-208-y-120?variant=2194339168265

J1772 would still need a transfomer to drop the AC or a full AC/DC converter/ controller to supply the proper voltage to the car.