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Best Tires/Wheels for Tracking Model 3

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Yeah for sure those extreme performance tires won't set any mileage records. You've piqued my curiosity though and I'm going to dig out what tirerack's testing says about the RE 71R. I had a set of the RE 71's many years ago but it wasn't the R version just the regular version. They were good, but not as good as the Michelin super sports, at least subjectively. Obviously if you're willing to give up tire mileage you can make tires a lot stickier. The 4S is really significantly better however than the Michelin super sports, which were the benchmark tire in Max performance. I'm curious if there is a benchmark tire according to tirerack's own testing in the extreme performance group. Like I said you've piqued my curiosity.
I have tried PS2's, RE11, and 3 sets of RE71R ( by far the best 'street' tire) PS4 not sure about but I imagine the RE71R is better + will wear out faster

Tirerack supports your claim. The Bridgestone RE 71R is their top-rated extreme performance tire, but I still love to see a head-to-head with the Michelin 4S. I'll see if I can find that.
 
Oh boy. I'm pretty familiar with the practice Daniel I just take issue with it in this case. On a lot of cars that might make the car faster particularly a Lexus, and other cars with what i would call 'grandmother' stability controls. I don't think it actually makes the car faster in this case, And it most certainly will not make it faster once Tesla enables its track mode in software. Drifting/sliding is not the same as going faster. Some people might consider it to be cooler, but it isn't necessarily faster. If you look at Formula One, cars achieve their best speeds before they break traction. Once you start breaking traction you actually are going to go slower. This is been proven dozens of times over in relationship to ABS functioning. Your braking is best just before your tire loses grip. Once it's sliding, your traction envelope has actually been deteriorated. This is true both in relationship to lateral as well as straight line acceleration/deceleration. :rolleyes:
The fastest lap times for every other car are done with stability and traction control disabled. Mountain Pass Performance has developed as solution to disable traction control and stability control while keeping ABS and significantly improved their lap times. No one has tested track mode yet.
 
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Here's what I found. You can load the mapping of 3 Max performance street tires (Conti, Michelin 4S and P Zero) HERE, and a Mapping 04 extreme performance tires (RE 71, a Dunlop, Hankook, and Falken) HERE. Although the Max performance tires are significantly behind all the extreme performance tires in peak lateral G's, on the road course, the difference whittles down to about 2/10– 3/10 of a second. The Michelin 4S completes the road course in 29.78 seconds, which puts it about a quarter second behind the RE 71R, but it's only a 10th of a second slower in the wet. Those are still significant differences on a racetrack obviously, but in exchange for that, you have all the treadwear and noise issues. Like everything else, it's all about the trade-offs. The 4S looks like it's a winning choice hands-down for the street. It's treadwear numbers are really high on the Tesla version something like 500? That's crazy high. It's amazing that the car has the grip that it does.

Getting back to just subjective impressions, I'm amazed that the overall envelope of grip in my car on those tires. If I change anything it will be going to a slightly larger 245 cross-section. With their treadwear rating of 500, it could be a long time before they wear out.
 
The fastest lap times for every other car are done with stability and traction control disabled. Mountain Pass Performance has developed as solution to disable traction control and stability control while keeping ABS and significantly improved their lap times. No one has tested track mode yet.

This is a good example of a claim without data, and where there is a lot of contravening information, and where an older and originally largely true statement has gradually become less and less true - it's really kind of an urban legend at this point. Macho real guys don't run on the track with ESC on, ever, kind of like how real professional photographers once didn't use AF, ever.

At best, it's a case-by-case car-by-car deal as to whether the average driver (vs. a professional driver) can do their best laps with some form of stability control left on (and oftentimes there are gradations on that point). It's discussed here, by a professional. BTW, if some form of a stability system were always slower, why is it outlawed in almost every form of motor racing? Seems a bit hard to explain that one, doesn't it?

You've failed to engage with my original point, which is that it depends on the ESC system, and older systems, particularly those engineered by Toyota, would slow cars down.

As for 'track mode' being untested, care to place a bet on whether or not the Tesla is faster with or without it? Since you are making such a sweeping claim, and seem to believe that you know almost everything about this subject, I'm hoping you'll back a gentleman's wager that you can run faster without it than with it. :rolleyes:;);)
 
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I have tried PS2's, RE11, and 3 sets of RE71R ( by far the best 'street' tire) PS4 not sure about but I imagine the RE71R is better + will wear out faster

Here is the only true comparative testing out there on the RE71R (reining track/street tire) vs. the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (heir to the Super Sport, and clearly the best street tire for a decade). It supports what you are saying, but the margins are SLIM!! And the 4S does everything pretty well, esp. for a tire with such good longevity, and in the wet, it's a virtual tie, even though the RE71R is hands down the best extreme performance tire in the wet among the four tested, the 4S is slightly better if the road is wet - something I'm not surprised by at this point, seeing what the M3P does in the rain. So, in other words, the 4S (and fin some instances the Conti) can beat the extreme performance tires in the rain. Not surprising if the latter group is optimized for dry track performance. The other thing that is rather surprising is that although all of the extreme performance tires dropkick the street tires in Max cornering loads (on average about a 10th of a G better which is really a lot) their track times are only fractionally better. That's interesting, and it suggests that Max cornering, while we tend to associate it with great track times, may be overrated. Even more surprising the Bridgestone RD 71R surpasses the Michelin 4S in both wet cornering and wet braking, but lags behind it in wet track time. What accounts for that? I have to confess that the real head scratcher, but it may be that the Michelin just has better feedback in some fashion and that allows the driver to keep it closer to its limits. The other thing that's a bit bizarre is all the extreme performance tires have exactly the same skid pad number? That seems just plain weird, and hard to explain unless maybe their lateral G meter is maxed out at 1G. Anyway, it's pretty interesting data, and generated apparently on virtually identical BMW Three Series Coupes. Tire Rack deserves a lot of credit for bringing some form of objective testing to the tire wars. Subjective and anecdotal reports are not data and are not a basis for making a judgment about quality or performance.

One might argue however that these data sets have an uncertain application to an all-wheel-drive car like the Tesla Model 3 P on the track because there in many ways one of the most critical variables for the Model 3P is how much traction the car/tire can generate out of corners. And this is where the Model 3 might have a huge advantage over even a BMW M3 – because its drive/acceleration load is shared (and also computer distributed) across all four wheels, it should smoke an M3 accelerating out of the slower corners even if the M3 has limited slip differential – a primitive and now out of date solution. And another issue is that its instant on torque may mean that drivers have to get 'recalibrated' in terms of how they approach acceleration. In a conventional drivetrain driven by an internal combustion engine, acceleration lag is something that drivers may unconsciously compensate for, but that compensation would actually impair potentially the performance and track numbers of the Model 3P. So you might have to unlearn some things to really get the Model 3P around the track in a best possible time. Over time, at least in theory, an all-wheel-drive car with instant acceleration should be easier to drive fast and close to its limits compared to a conventional ICE car with rear wheel drive, especially if you add something like turbo lag.

In case anyone's forgotten or doesn't fully understand the basic principles, your cornering load and your acceleration and braking loads are competitive in relationship to how much of the total traction envelope of a given tire they might capture and thereby exclude the competing partner. In other words, high levels of cornering close to the limits of the tire mean that the tire has no acceleration or braking envelope left, and if the driver tries to add braking or acceleration to the borderline-overloaded tire traction picture, they will break the tire loose, with anywhere from moderately bad to disastrous results (slower time, spin out, crash). Intuitively of course I'm sure everybody here understands this, but it merits spelling out because it has some really major implications for track performance. As I've tried to point out to one somewhat recalcitrant forum member, once your tire breaks loose, your traction envelope actually crashes and is a fraction of its maximum, and can only be rebooted after the tire stops sliding completely. Obviously, the amazing art and skill in race car driving is keeping your traction loads as close to the maximum envelope capacity as you can in every corner and in braking and accelerating out of every corner, sensing when you're bumping up against the limit at least in one tire, and staying inside that traction envelope, and virtually never exceeding it. Of course, what happens when you exceed that traction envelope in one tire is that those traction envelope forces are immediately passed on to the other three tires, typically overloading them rather quickly, and provoking a slide/spin out. People who can accurately sense and thereby exploit the max traction envelope without exceeding it make millions of dollars from such a skill.

In relationship to all-wheel-drive and racing, this ability to distribute acceleration loads across four instead of just two wheels is why all-wheel-drive cars are outlawed in almost all forms of car racing. They're simply so much better it's just unfair, And that again is due simply to the competitive dynamics between breaking/acceleration forces and cornering forces. And that's why at least in my opinion the upside of the Model 3 P is so great and its potential so high. I think on a short course with bigger tires, where it could really take advantage of its better ability to accelerate while tires were loaded by cornering forces, it could challenge a Ferrari 458. At least until its battery and motor started to get hot.
 
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Look, I never claimed to be great driver. My claim is that most cars with a pro driver are faster with stability and traction control disabled. The Model 3 LR is faster with stability control and traction control disabled (read Mountain Pass Performance's posts). There are a few cars that have systems that actually improve lap times (McLaren). It remains to be seen whether "Track Mode" is one them. Here is the list of fastest stock lap times at Laguna Seca. The fastest Model 3P time is 146.8 with stability control on. Obviously track mode and a pro driver will improve that. The fastest stock P100D time with a pro driver is 1:43.06 (not sure if TSC was disabled or not). I don't think AWD has as big advantage as you think. Also note that virtually every car on this list has a mechanical limited slip because a brake based system converts power in to heat instead of forward momentum.

Laguna Lap Time_zpsqwmavcvx.jpg
 
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@dfwatt Just because you haven’t done any testing doesn’t mean testing hasn’t been done! :)

Model 3 RWD benefitted significantly in overall lap time disabling stability control. Model 3 Performance didn’t really benefit. I have done the testing and have the data for this.

Looking forward to Track Mode for the Performance, but RWD will likely never get that mode. Best bet if you care about the last couple seconds of lap time is Mountain Pass Perormance upcoming stability control defeat. It’s ok if you don’t, that’s perfectly fine! But we all know you’re what they call a “bench racer” ;)


 
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Without changing the rolling diameter, which is REALLY bad from several standpoints, you want a 19 inch lightweight wheel from Advanti (22 lbs) with a 9.5 inch width, allowing you to run 265/35-19 tires, which will give awesome bite in the corners. I'd love to experience the AWD Performance model 3 digging out of a tight corner with AWD and that much rubber and 472 ft lbs of torque. Would be incredible!!

Best part, no increase in unsprung weight, perhaps even dropping a couple of lbs, as the wheel is 10 lbs less, while the tire is heavier, but not by as much. At that size (265/35-19), I would call Tire Rack and ask them what they would recommend for a track tire.

If you don't mind losing a lot of charge range, you could run Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, and use on both track and street, but your mileage will really suffer. Part of how Tesla got low rolling resistance out of the PS 4S was getting them re-engineered to run at 42 lbs without abnormal crown wear (probably changed the belt and perhaps other aspects), so that the Performance version 235/35-20 tire could run with significantly more pressure and still wear evenly across the whole tread instead of balding the crown of the tire. I doubt that the much larger 265/35 19's will have that ability, but I'd ask the Tire Rack about that, and what they might recommend for a pure track tire. Your ride is also going to realistically, well, suck with that much rubber. But the grip should be incredible.

Found out that all the 4S Pilot Sports were engineered for somewhat reduced rolling resistance and higher pressure operation, not just the 235/35-20 tire for the Tesla Model 3P. Also, Tire Rack's info on that tire appears to have at least one mistaken spec - treadwear, which on the website is listed as 500 is in fact 300.
@Odiemac what track wheels/tires are you thinking of using for the P3D? I just got one myself (with bigger brakes) and am looking for a track set-up.

If you want the best bang for the buck on the track, I would get the 265/35-10 Bridgestone RE71R, which is about $290 a tire, but you'll need at least a 19 x 9 or better yet a 19 x 9.5 wheel. Right now, the best lightweight one is the Advanti Svelto, which can be had for just over $300 in the 19 x 9.5 size, which is ideal for the tire size. They are NOT forged, but you can't get a forged 19 right now that will fit the car (see below), and if you could, I'd expect to pay at least $600-700 a corner, just for the wheel, if not more. This setup, wheel and tire, is only $590 a corner. The tire is ~5 lbs heavier per corner than the stock but the wheel is likely ~10 lbs lighter, for a 5 lbs weight loss per corner.

The traction with this setup should be awesome. But the ride, range/mileage, and treadwear are going to frankly suck. So I would run those only at the track, and then go back to the really great Michelin 4S, and have the best of both world, a wheel swap away. One big catch - Tire Rack doesn't have the proper hub centric adaptors yet, and the stock Tesla M3 hub-centric adaptors won't work, due to the 2-3 mm lip created by the slightly thinner rotor hat on all cars with the Brembo brakes. So the wheel can't be mounted.

Call Oscar at the Tire Rack - he is aware of all these issues, and will let you know when proper adaptors come in.
 
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@dfwatt Just because you haven’t done any testing doesn’t mean testing hasn’t been done! :)

Model 3 RWD benefitted significantly in overall lap time disabling stability control. Model 3 Performance didn’t really benefit. I have done the testing and have the data for this.

Looking forward to Track Mode for the Performance, but RWD will likely never get that mode. Best bet if you care about the last couple seconds of lap time is Mountain Pass Perormance upcoming stability control defeat. It’s ok if you don’t, that’s perfectly fine! But we all know you’re what they call a “bench racer” ;)



Track mode should be on my AWD Performance version tomorrow, if V9 installs on time. So as for being a 'bench racer,' and not wanting to defeat ABS and computer modulation of traction, I'll let you take that out on your RWD. Be my guest!!
 
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Yea i'm aware of the wheel fitment problems and that's one of my main reasons for asking what people are running on the track. When you say adapters, is that just a donut style spacer such that the lip doesn't matter? I feel like that isn't really a great solution and i'd rather have the wheel counterbored or countersunk to fit properly (hopefully some wheels come out soon with this besides T-Sportline).

I was looking at something like a BFG g-Force R1S for purely track use and then swapping back to the 4S for the street, but not sure what size for that or which wheel.

Track mode should be on my AWD Performance version tomorrow, if V9 installs on time. So as for being a 'bench racer,' and not wanting to defeat ABS and computer modulation of traction, I'll let you take that out on your RWD. Be my guest!!

Does V9 have track mode? I wasn't aware of that and am going to be SUPER excited if this is true :D
 
Just chiming in since I saw RE71Rs mentioned. Absolutely love those tires. Had PSS, then RE71Rs on my STI (265/35/18). Had PSS, then PS4S on another 2 cars. RE71Rs are incredible, but the road noise increase is substantial. PSS I could easily break traction with, RE71Rs were insanely grippy in comparison. Would love to know the mileage difference between the two.
 
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alf...odel-3-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-alfa-romeo-giulia/

Model 3 needs dedicated track tires for the best lap times. The stock ones offer good performance while being more durable and efficient.

Then somebody notices the Alfa's Pirelli P Zero Corsa AR Asimmetrico front tires. They're asimmetrico, all right: Half of each tread block's rubber is gone after two sets of three hard laps. The Tesla engineer points to his car's Michelin Pilot Sport 4Ss that are at worst scuffed. "We could do that time if we were willing to destroy our tires," he says. The Tesla's rubber contains complex compounding across its tread for minimal rolling resistance but stickiness for corners (with foam glued into its interior to reduce noise). The technical investment in this tire—which can generate 0.95 g's of cornering grip from a 4,078-pound car without significantly damaging the rubber and still deliver 310 miles on a charge—is remarkable.
 
Yea i'm super curious to hear what wheels people start using with the Performance version and it's unique fitment requirements (i.e the lip and valve stem/caliper clearance problems). Also wondering if we can fit a 19x9.5" wheel with a 265 tire.

After doing an Autocross event i think it's pretty clear that the Pilot Sport 4S isn't really up for that task :p
 
Yea i'm aware of the wheel fitment problems and that's one of my main reasons for asking what people are running on the track. When you say adapters, is that just a donut style spacer such that the lip doesn't matter? I feel like that isn't really a great solution and i'd rather have the wheel counterbored or countersunk to fit properly (hopefully some wheels come out soon with this besides T-Sportline).

I was looking at something like a BFG g-Force R1S for purely track use and then swapping back to the 4S for the street, but not sure what size for that or which wheel.

Does V9 have track mode? I wasn't aware of that and am going to be SUPER excited if this is true :D

Yes, it's that donut-like insert. Wheel manufacturers routinely make the wheel hub as large as the largest application, or even larger, and then simply create specs for any relevant application in terms of the needed hubcentric spacers. And the problem with making it as large as the largest application is that the spacers for the other cars might be too thin to be durable. So the hub is typically oversized.

You can't have the wheel machined due to this 'larger than needed' approach - it still likely clears both the hub, and the lip on the rotor hat - even if it was a snug fit over the 2-3mm lip, that's probably not enough surface for a securely hubcentric mount. The adaptor we need would have to fit both the hub, and the inner lip, and something that just fits the hub (and would therefore work on all the non-Brembo braked cars) would not work. On the other hand, you COULD have the adaptor machined (as I've been tempted to do myself!) I'm going to give Tire Rack another 10-14 days, and if at that time, they don't have one, I'll pay to have the existing adaptors machined.

If you tried to mount a wheel with an adapter that worked on the standard brake Tesla M3, you might compress a plastic adaptor to the point where the wheel initially seemed properly mounted, but it likely would not be completely co-planar with the hub surface, the wheel would have all of its load on the adaptor circle and not distributed through the hub plate surface, the adaptor would quickly fracture, and probably fragment, and then you'd be in real trouble with a loose wheel. If you had a metal adaptor, it might take the load for a while, but would eventually fail too, and never really guarantee that the wheel was in fact co-planer with the hub

Although people sometime feel that this approach isn't as elegant as a wheel made specifically for that hub, having used these on perhaps 20+ sets of aftermarket wheels, I've never had any issue - assuming that the fit between adaptor and hub is pretty snug (if it's not, teflon tape rescues that situation easily). Additionally, it means that the wheel can be repurposed for another car with the same bolt circle and basic offset (and lots of vehicles these days have the 114x5 and 30-45mm offset).instead of it being useful only on that specific hub.

As for Sportline, they have egg on their face big time, in terms of selling wheels for the M3P without doing their homework, the wheels could not be mounted properly, and many of those wheels were damaged. Fortunately, no one was injured.

V9 should have track mode, but this is not confirmed - I've had one of our two M3P on wifi all night and no luck in getting the update.

I'm not familiar with the feedback on the BFG tire - I am familiar with the press that the Pilot Sport Cup and RE71R get.

Hope that's helpful
 
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Yea i'm super curious to hear what wheels people start using with the Performance version and it's unique fitment requirements (i.e the lip and valve stem/caliper clearance problems). Also wondering if we can fit a 19x9.5" wheel with a 265 tire.

After doing an Autocross event i think it's pretty clear that the Pilot Sport 4S isn't really up for that task :p

In theory, yes, the 265/35-19 with a 9.5 would be the ideal option. Just need the proper hubcentric adaptor.
 
You can't have the wheel machined due to this 'larger than needed' approach - it still likely clears both the hub, and the lip on the rotor hat - even if it was a snug fit over the 2-3mm lip, that's probably not enough surface for a securely hubcentric mount. The adaptor we need would have to fit both the hub, and the inner lip, and something that just fits the hub (and would therefore work on all the non-Brembo braked cars) would not work. On the other hand, you COULD have the adaptor machined (as I've been tempted to do myself!) I'm going to give Tire Rack another 10-14 days, and if at that time, they don't have one, I'll pay to have the existing adaptors machined.

Good info, i haven't yet pulled off my wheels as i still need the hockey puck for jacking it up - but do you know how Tesla does it for the stock 20" wheels on the P3D+? Are the wheels machined specifically for that fit or do they have some type of adapter?

Seems like a good idea to copy what Tesla has done with the 20" stock wheels.
 
Good info, i haven't yet pulled off my wheels as i still need the hockey puck for jacking it up - but do you know how Tesla does it for the stock 20" wheels on the P3D+? Are the wheels machined specifically for that fit or do they have some type of adapter?

Seems like a good idea to copy what Tesla has done with the 20" stock wheels.

Yup - I agree, but there is a caveat. I have pulled mine off and inspected them, after getting the invaluable hockey puck (don't leave home without it!) The stock wheels have the normal 62mm (?) hub and then a slim little 2+mm notch cut out for the stainless steel lip on the rotor hat (that appears to be part of the hub assembly itself). I don't think except for custom forged wheels that you could duplicate that cut in the aluminum alloy though - and if you did, it might make the wheel unusable on another Model 3 w/out the Brembo brakes, so I still think the smart move is to wait until the custom adapters appear, and then if you want to use on a Model 3 without the upgraded brakes, you can just get the adapter that's out there now for the car without the lip notch, and pop it in. That way, you are not painted into a corner. I'm not a big fan of single hug/single vehicle wheels, if you can easily have an option to repurpose later. The bolt circle is very common, and so is the rough offset.
 
Yup - I agree, but there is a caveat. I have pulled mine off and inspected them, after getting the invaluable hockey puck (don't leave home without it!) The stock wheels have the normal 62mm (?) hub and then a slim little 2+mm notch cut out for the stainless steel lip on the rotor hat (that appears to be part of the hub assembly itself). I don't think except for custom forged wheels that you could duplicate that cut in the aluminum alloy though - and if you did, it might make the wheel unusable on another Model 3 w/out the Brembo brakes, so I still think the smart move is to wait until the custom adapters appear, and then if you want to use on a Model 3 without the upgraded brakes, you can just get the adapter that's out there now for the car without the lip notch, and pop it in. That way, you are not painted into a corner. I'm not a big fan of single hug/single vehicle wheels, if you can easily have an option to repurpose later. The bolt circle is very common, and so is the rough offset.

I've been doing lots of reading and it sounds like people are getting custom machined wheels from getyourwheels as they will machine a countersink specifically for Tesla Model 3 Performance so that many of their wheels can fit! Other people like Fast Wheels are also offering their wheels with the necessary machining in the next week or two (similar wheels as seen in this video:
)

Now my main dilemma is what size wheels to get...18x10 or 19x9.5, both in a +35 offset. I'd run 275's on the former and 265s on the latter, likely in RE-71R for starters and maybe going to A7's or something similar eventually. Both of these sizes will be a pretty tight fit and i'd love to get confirmation from someone that they fit before pulling the trigger :D
 
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