Between a Model Y and a Subaru Outback

[dabbler]

Trading in a car regardless of who the trade is with, is an easy way to loose some of the value of your used car. Selling out-right ( more hassle) will usually bring more value.

Your time- line might suggest that you may be able to locate a used Model Y. Warranty will still trans fer. As production increases at the Fremont plant, the market for used Model Y will increase also.

Battery degradation is usually less than 10% even Tesla's with over 100k miles.

I have seen some used Model Xs' on the market for less than a new Model Y. Used vehicle mileage on Tesla's is not like the normal wear and tare on ICE vehicles. I sold my last Model S with 185k miles on the clock. Other than a few sets of tires, it was very, very low maintenance. The next owner bought a great car for under $25k.

BTW, I owned a Subaru SVX, 2- Tribeca's and a Baja Turbo. All were great cars at the time.

 

[Pilot1226]

You're right, time is also worth something. I didn't have the time to spare when I started my lease so I wanted to get in and out as quick as possible. Another "gotcha" that Subaru uses is their Guaranteed Trade-in Program, where if the car is under a certain age and mileage, they typically provide around 20% higher than book value. While I am aware that book value is largely variable, I do know that by looking around on other used car websites that the trade-in offer they gave me was around 5% under what they used car places were asking for a comparable model, trim, and mileage vehicle. So, I felt it was reasonable. And in the end, I ended up "getting a check" for the value rather than rolling it into my lease. That money is now in a savings account that is going to be enough to pay for nearly all (around 30 out of the 36 months) of the lease.

Degradation isn't really bothering me because I did a bunch of research on the general trends. As long as I can stay above 200 miles with degradation coming into play down the road, it will remain a fully usable vehicle for my needs. So, we'd be looking at over 33% degradation, which I won't expect to happen until well over 10 years of ownership. In fact, I'd expect a full-out failure of some of the cells or bricks before that happened.

I won't do used in this scenario. It's just preference. There are too many variables and people that are careless with leased cars, and I don't want to potentially be the guy that buys the used car where the previous owner charged it to 100% and ran it to 0% regularly. Just not going to happen. Now, if they had a graph of lifetime charging data that they could present, now that could be a game changer...

Again I'm in a good position here, if I can get a good trade-in buyout offer for my lease, I won't hesitate to pull the trigger, but if I do need to wait until next summer that's fine too, they'll hopefully have the bugs worked out by then and maybe have the auto dimming side mirrors as an option.

Also, a question:

When's the ideal time to order? If my lease ends in January of 2022, that means I need the vehicle before that. If I get the car too early, I'll be carrying the financing on the Tesla as well as the remaining lease payments. I know they sometimes like to rush things near end of the year for higher numbers, so I was thinking around October 1, 2021. Or should I do it sooner?

 

[noshadow]

I am leasing a 2019 Outback 3.6R Limited at the moment, with the intention of replacing it with a Model Y.

The Outback is an amazing car for what I need. I am always with my 80 lbs dog, who has plenty of space in the cargo area, even to stand up. If I were to buy an outback, I would get something more permanent and safe like a Variocage for her.

I've gone through snow and some unpaved roads for adventures, and it's been really easy.

The downside is that the gas mileage is pretty bad for a 3.6R, but the power increase from the 2.5 was enough to get me there. My parents actually have the same 2019 but in the 2.5 form, which doesn't have the umph going up a hill, but also still doesn't get that great of gas mileage either.

I had a 2014 Audi S5 (6spd), and it got better gas mileage (well, sometimes it would only get single digits, but that's a different story).

The Outback drives poorly if you want to have fun driving, but it's solid and gets the job done.

I'm already waiting for a Black Model Y PUP, got the call back in March right before SIP, but never got the car (for obvious reasons). I'm now hoping they put off production even longer to see if there's an Outback plug-in coming up.

Given a lot of the shortcomings of the Model Y, I'm not sure spending $66k on the car to replace my Outback is worth it just yet. Maybe in addition to it, but it's quite a bit smaller than the outback. I would fold the back seats down (keep one up) and put in a variocage that way, whereas the outback could keep both seats up.

I'm holding my breath that we'll see a plugin hybrid Outback announced soon so I can make a decision. That Rav-4 plugin doesn't seem to shabby either.

 

[Pilot1226]

Thanks for your post. I'd be happy to take that 3.6 off your hands

I think the heart of the post is exactly the class of car versus what you're after. Nobody is suggesting that the Outback 3.6R (which was discontinued after the 2019 model year, available in Limited and Touring trims which started in the low 30's to the mid 30's with the Touring before options) could compete with the Model Y. I'm not sure why someone "disagreed" with your post, I found some useful information in it.

Unfortunately the modern Subaru engine design has direct injection and they've discontinued the 6-cylinder boxer engine. You have two choices depending on your model, namely, the 2.5 4-cylinder or the 2.4 turbocharged 4 cylinder. Apparently the turbo engines get a "more robust" transmission to deal with the extra torque but the only option is a CVT regardless of the engine.

Again for me personally, my entry into Tesla is more of a practical usefulness standpoint: I'm not after face melting speed, I care about efficiency, mileage, and long-term reliability. I meant what I had said earlier: this could be (one of) the last car(s) I purchase... even though I'm in my late 30's, I have a realistic expectation that this will last me 15-20 years. I have no problem with replacing battery modules as time goes on (and technology improves) ... Part of the expectation is the regular software updates that keep things moving forward rather than having to buy a new model. Again the greatest "example" of this is with my 2019 Forester that doesn't have Autosteer. If Subaru rolled out software updates for the driving dynamics itself, it could "install" the capability to my car. Instead, if I was Autosteer, I have to buy another $30,000+ Forester since this feature wasn't added until 2020.

@noshadow - I think you're in a good spot because in my opinion, the 3.6R will be "sought after" by certain buyers. While the 2019's didn't have all the bells and whistles of the modern 2020 redesign, there was a sort of... elegance... in its simplicity and no giant infotainment screens to deal with. And, as far as I can remember, I don't believe the 3.6 had nearly as many issues with head gaskets failing compared to the 2.5's. (The 2.5 engine series "EJ253" had some issues, and the 3.6 "EZ36D" seems to have a much lower instance rate.)

I'm curious to see what happens as well in the next 18 months I have my lease. Pandemic aside, that is a lot of time for development and announcements once things are hopefully returning to normal or at least settling down. But, I do believe I read an article that Subaru and Toyota are teaming up to do hybrids together, eventually EV's, and the full EV's won't happen until closer to 2030 - too long to wait.

In terms of efficiency, it's 17 cents per kWh here with no time of use available. It'll cost me about $4250.00 to drive 100,000 miles and use about 25,000 kWh of energy doing so at a 250 watt per mile efficiency.

Gasoline (87 "Regular") at 3.00 per gallon will cost $15,000 to go that same 100,000 miles. At 2.00, it'll cost $10,000. Both are considerably higher. Right now at Costco, it's $1.70 for a gallon of 87. That's still $8,500 for the same 100,000 miles, almost double.

There's no denying the perks in terms of "energy" savings and maintenance savings. The bigger question is going to be is how the Tesla holds up over 10+ years. We have several Model 3's that are getting up there in mileage thanks to Tesloop and other fleet companies, so in terms of a technology demonstration, it seems to be logical that it can work good enough for 10 years, and save me that $10,000 in fuel over the 10 years.

That helps stomach the purchase price for a Model Y LR AWD from $53,000 to $48,000 with NJ's state discount, and then over those 10 years, it's more like $38,000.

Conversely, the Subaru with it's 20 mpg in the city will cost more, with its purchase price of around $30,000 and about $15,000 in fuel over 10 years at $3/gallon, it definitely adds up.

I don't know that I'd go for a Subaru Outback from here on out. Like you said, they're solid and get the job done, but I don't need to be loyal to Subaru just because I've owned a bunch.

I suppose my more realistic options are:
1. Buy out my Forester lease. Benefits to this option would be that it'd be cheap - only around $18,000 to buy out for a car I know has been well maintained. Cons would be it's missing some features I would take advantage of immediately, like AutoSteer/Lane Centering.
2. Buy a competitor's hybrid/PHEV. This would likely be a Toyota RAV4 Prime or Hybrid. I would make the money back relatively quickly considering the highway driving and not have to worry about anything, really. Cons would be that I would be missing out on the EV/Tesla experience.
3. Buy the Tesla. It would cost more up front (the $48k I mentioned), but it would end up saving longer term. Cons would be that it would be harder to justify this on a purely monetary standpoint compared to the RAV4 Prime since that could run off electricity also for nearly all my commuting needs. I'd have a hard time selling this option to the wife if I found a good price compared to a R4P because the maintenance and fuel savings would probably never make up for the difference in purchase price.

 

[Pilot1226]

Going to add the Chevy Bolt to the list of things to look at. The Bolt is certainly not in the same class as the Model Y, but it's still something to consider. It looks like the Bolt can be negotiated down to the very low 30's with factory incentives as well, and combining that with my state discount means that it could be purchased for around the high 20's - close to $28,000.

The Bolt doesn't have adaptive cruise control or other driver assistance features, but automatic braking can be added. This is kind of a downer for long-term ownership, but on the other side of the coin, it allows someone like me to get into EV's without having myself break the bank. It's around a $20,000 savings compared to the Model Y LR AWD. Perhaps either the SR or SR+ Model Y would be more of an appropriate fit...

And there's also the Chevy Bolt EUV variant coming out next year, which should be more of an apples to apples comparison. That would probably push closer to the mid 30's after rebate, which is also supposed to have SuperCruise. That might be worth waiting for...

 

[feigen66]

Chevy Bolt does not have OTA update, FYI. Any update needs to go back to dealership. So SuperCruise does not improve every two weeks like Autopilot.

 

[Pilot1226]

From what I’ve seen on YouTube the last couple of days researching, it seems that after a certain update at the dealer they now have the ability to do over the air updates for the future. But I agree with you that the updates will most likely be much less frequent compared to Tesla ones.

Just a point of clarification: SuperCruise is NOT available yet. It is suggested that it will be made available with the Model year 2021 refresh next summer.

The one perk of SuperCruise I see right now is that it is truly hands off driving so you don’t have the wheel nanny nag every minute but there are other sensors to confirm the driver is paying attention. I believe this is through infrared technology which is what Subaru uses on their newer stuff called “DriverFocus” to keep distracted driving to a minimum.

Will have to wait and see what happens. But something tells me that I would be happier in a SR+ Model Y if the price of the LR AWD was too much of a stretch compared to the Chevy.

 

[Pilot1226]

Just a followup to the post:

I saw my first Model Y in the wild today driving to the shore, it caught my eye!

At this point I've crossed the RAV4 Prime & Hybrid off the list completely, along with the Bolt (and predicted Bolt EUV in 2021)...

Trying to find some direct comparisons from people that have jumped from an Outback to a Model Y. I'm hopeful that as time goes on, the quality of the build will improve on the Tesla. I'm also hoping that there are tons of them on the road. The Mrs. is concerned about the flashiness and aura that a Tesla projects - and I don't disagree with her. You're talking to someone (me) that was happy driving a glorified station wagon and blended in.

I'm not as concerned about range anxiety as I was when I started this whole thread, and I've test driven the Model 3 and was satisfied aside from the interior space, but I am waiting until the pandemic slows before I test drive a Model Y. I've been speaking with the sales rep at my local sales/service department about once a month.

Also, due to the pandemic affecting the car rental business, it's driven down the cost of used cars tremendously. It does not appear that the sale of my lease would be a viable option here, so I'm planning to keep trucking. If I choose a new Subaru Outback, I've decided to go for the Touring XT trim, which would put me around a price difference of around $5000-6000 after taxes, rebates, and options are considered (which would be a sale price of around $40k for the Subaru)... cost to operate the Outback is about 10 cents per mile at my math and economy, whereas the Model Y would be around 4.5 cents per mile. People have also been suggesting using 93 octane for the XT - while not required or even recommended - as tuners are noticing that the computer is pulling timing more often than they'd like when using 87. That would increase the operating cost difference between the two.

For charging I'm solidified on my use of a 120V20A outlet which I'd use with the Mobile Connector. I'd consider a second MC for backups to leave in the car or if the first one failed... even pre-pandemic, this provides far more energy than I use. And, there have been a few pop-up Superchargers to/from shore areas, or at least the permits to do such work. I'm confident that in a pinch I have some relatively convenient options.

 

[bpjod]

Also, due to the pandemic affecting the car rental business, it's driven down the cost of used cars tremendously.

In your cost analysis, have you considered the above in relation to the depreciation of both options, especially considering depreciation is pretty much the largest cost associated with new vehicle ownership? I’d be either grabbing a good deal on a used ICE vehicle or else a new BEV if I were in the market for a vehicle today. No way I’d ever buy a new ICE vehicle ever again though. The current glut of used vehicles will keep used ICE vehicle pricing low until more affordable BEVs become available At that point used ICE vehicle pricing will never recover.

 

[Pilot1226]

Depreciation is something that truly does not matter to me as I am planning to drive it until it is worth next to nothing anyway. While depreciation is important for considering some things like insurance costs, I’m not looking for something to maintain the value for purposes of trade in down the road. This is a buy and hold scenario.

 

[Hugh Mannity]

Nothing wrong with the Outback other than the seats are back killers for road trips

and it burns gas, that’s a show stopper for many of us.

 

[Gwgan]

Missed this thread when it started but my advice is the same now as it would have been then; once you go EV you will regret every day you delayed but then you quickly forget how awful it is to drive an ICE and it becomes the new normal. It’s a car, it works in the snow (tires!), and never needs service, ever (except brakes, not pads, just cleaned yearly or so).
Maine is Subaru/pickup country, we had one. All my Subaru loving friends want a Tesla instead but what stops them is the door price—we don’t have the lush NJ incentives. They acknowlege the lower cost of ownership but dislike the rigidity of a higher scheduled payment. If you can afford one then buy one, it really is that simple.

I've been speaking with the sales rep at my local sales/service department about once a month.

What do you talk about? When you are ready, pick the owner referral URL from whomever helped you the most and order one online.

 

[Levelheadsteve]

I have a Subaru Outback and love it. I just ordered a Y, but I’m keeping the Outback as it’s my wife’s main car. If I could only pick one, it’s hard to beat an EV. It really just depends on your personal situation.

 

[StanT]

So I just wanted to post something regarding the 120v charging and your panel issue. I remembered seeing a gadget that would allow you to get 220v from 2 120v connections. I'm putting the link below. Please note, I have never used it but I've always thought it was interesting.

Basically you connect a 20amp regular 120 cord to the device, Then you need to find another 20amp 120 outlet however it needs to be on a different circuit- and that circuit has to be on the other phase of your panel than the first one.

The device can than combine the phases and give you 20amp at 220v. The device also theoretically can detect if you are on different phases or not to make sure it works properly.

This at least may solve your charging questions. Here is the link:

This Device "Doubles Your Charging Speed" By Duplicating Voltage

For me- I got the MY with tow (and rack) to run around town with the kids, have my wife drive it to work (she is a professor) and go visit family that live up to 5 hrs away... so I wanted a Tesla for the supercharger network. The icing on the cake for me was when I saw them building a supercharger in my town- then I was like- if I ever need FAST electric, I'm 5 miles away.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[Pilot1226]

Missed this thread when it started but my advice is the same now as it would have been then; once you go EV you will regret every day you delayed but then you quickly forget how awful it is to drive an ICE and it becomes the new normal. It’s a car, it works in the snow (tires!), and never needs service, ever (except brakes, not pads, just cleaned yearly or so).
Maine is Subaru/pickup country, we had one. All my Subaru loving friends want a Tesla instead but what stops them is the door price—we don’t have the lush NJ incentives. They acknowlege the lower cost of ownership but dislike the rigidity of a higher scheduled payment. If you can afford one then buy one, it really is that simple.

What do you talk about? When you are ready, pick the owner referral URL from whomever helped you the most and order one online.

One possibility is that I could wait for a SR+ version next year. I don’t plan to road trip with this car, so the longest legs would be 60 miles or so each way to shore areas in the summer. But, the biggest SR+ concern I have is the winter driving capability. I don’t run a dedicated winter tire so I am wondering how well an all season tire will handle the conditions here in snow. We salt and plow quickly thanks to the big cities and highways nearby, and everything is relatively flat plus or minus a few hills that can be avoided with a different route. I don’t have the space to store the 4 winters so swapping them out wouldn’t be an option. I could consider an all climate tire when the OEM requires replacement. Currently, I drive all seasons on my Subarus and always have and they’ve been great, but I did plan to use all climates when I had to change them as an extra safety measure.

So I just wanted to post something regarding the 120v charging and your panel issue. I remembered seeing a gadget that would allow you to get 220v from 2 120v connections. I'm putting the link below. Please note, I have never used it but I've always thought it was interesting.

Basically you connect a 20amp regular 120 cord to the device, Then you need to find another 20amp 120 outlet however it needs to be on a different circuit- and that circuit has to be on the other phase of your panel than the first one.

The device can than combine the phases and give you 20amp at 220v. The device also theoretically can detect if you are on different phases or not to make sure it works properly.

This at least may solve your charging questions. Here is the link:

This Device "Doubles Your Charging Speed" By Duplicating Voltage

For me- I got the MY with tow (and rack) to run around town with the kids, have my wife drive it to work (she is a professor) and go visit family that live up to 5 hrs away... so I wanted a Tesla for the supercharger network. The icing on the cake for me was when I saw them building a supercharger in my town- then I was like- if I ever need FAST electric, I'm 5 miles away.

Good luck with your decision!

Thanks for your reply. I know of a v3 SC opening at the Jersey Gardens mall soon, which is accessible to me during my hour long lunch break, and close enough to my job that I could make it there in 10 minutes each way. There is also a v2 120kW on the way home - or close enough to the route - which looks like less than a 5 minute detour to and from the highway. So, there are options.

Again my biggest complaint or concern isn’t range anxiety - it’s about the flashiness image projected by Tesla ownership. I’m not one to associate with expensive things, but I do love technology. I have never owned a car outside of Subaru and Honda brand but am familiar with many.

 

[StanT]

Again my biggest complaint or concern isn’t range anxiety - it’s about the flashiness image projected by Tesla ownership. I’m not one to associate with expensive things, but I do love technology. I have never owned a car outside of Subaru and Honda brand but am familiar with many.

Yeah, I hear ya. My other 2 cars are a 2009 Toyota Hybrid Camry and a 2017 Toyota Sienna- both bought used and no where near the price of the MY. And before that it was another Standard Camry and a Honda Accord (that I bought used and drove to 332k). So I get it- I have used, almost AB cars all my life that I run to no less than 200k (except for the GM Saturn SL1 and Dodge Charger- not the one you're thinking of- the late 80's one with the tiny 4 cylinder and hatch back- couldn't get them past 150k).

But my 2 kids are teenagers and about to drive. So their primary car will be the 2009, BUT I remember doing stupid things like driving too late and being really tired when I shouldn't have driven- and I have a former coworker who lost their son because he fell asleep driving, drove off the road into a tree. That's one of the driving forces for me to get this car- I know A) its the safest car around and B) it will try to prevent them from doing something stupid- like avoid going off the road or at least really slow down if not stop. My take was- if we could afford it we should get the safest vehicle we can... not saying the Outback isn't safe- I actually recommended that car to my mother in law a few years back as her "perfect car" and she still loves it! (Except what's up with having to take the front wheel off and open the wheel well just to change a headlight??? who thought of that?)

The other reason we got this car is that we think this car could be the 500k+ mile car for us. So we are planning to run it until it dies, and change the battery when that dies first (maybe at that time we can get an even bigger/new version battery). And I watch my parents drive, they are fine but I think Autopilot will keep improving and helping my wife and I remain very active as we get older.

So we decided who cares what people think- its good for us in the future, its the safest thing for our kids, its good for the environment (we have solar panels 3 years before the MY) and its the right size for most things. We are not going to get rid of the Sienna because honestly- the AWD Sienna is HUGE and if you put snow tires on it it can go through anything. Someday the 2009 will be owned by one of our kids. And the MY- that will be ours into retirement- fingers crossed.

I still think though you'll want some sort of faster charger at home. As I type this my MY is gearing up for a 240 mile round trip tomorrow and I'm charging up to 290 range.

Good luck with your decision... I'm from NY- Hudson Valley so feel free to message me if you have any specific questions.

PS- Now if you really want people to look at you... just wait for the Cyber Truck...

 

[myMY808]

Again my biggest complaint or concern isn’t range anxiety - it’s about the flashiness image projected by Tesla ownership. I’m not one to associate with expensive things, but I do love technology. I have never owned a car outside of Subaru and Honda brand but am familiar with many.

In my area, the Model 3 is becoming relatively ubiquitous to the point where it's not unusual to pass one on the road. But I can see how it can stick out in areas where they aren't as common on the road.

To me, it's less about the "flashiness" and more of a stereotyped "superiority" image of Tesla owners that I've noticed. Definitely not all owners. But I've gotten chewed out by a Tesla owner for even daring to consider a non-EV or even a PHEV. As far as he/she was concerned, a Tesla is the only choice if you care about the future. Even on here, there was a poster complaining about Leaf owners because they have to share the public charging stations with them. We don't have Tesla-only Superchargers here, so, yes, you have to share.

It seems to result in a formation of polar extremes -- Tesla-haters and Tesla-lovers -- which is something I really don't think I want to get dragged into just by association of owning a Tesla. I will admit, that has weighed on my deliberation between the Model Y and something else.

 

[Pilot1226]

Yeah, I hear ya. My other 2 cars are a 2009 Toyota Hybrid Camry and a 2017 Toyota Sienna- both bought used and no where near the price of the MY. And before that it was another Standard Camry and a Honda Accord (that I bought used and drove to 332k). So I get it- I have used, almost AB cars all my life that I run to no less than 200k (except for the GM Saturn SL1 and Dodge Charger- not the one you're thinking of- the late 80's one with the tiny 4 cylinder and hatch back- couldn't get them past 150k).

But my 2 kids are teenagers and about to drive. So their primary car will be the 2009, BUT I remember doing stupid things like driving too late and being really tired when I shouldn't have driven- and I have a former coworker who lost their son because he fell asleep driving, drove off the road into a tree. That's one of the driving forces for me to get this car- I know A) its the safest car around and B) it will try to prevent them from doing something stupid- like avoid going off the road or at least really slow down if not stop. My take was- if we could afford it we should get the safest vehicle we can... not saying the Outback isn't safe- I actually recommended that car to my mother in law a few years back as her "perfect car" and she still loves it! (Except what's up with having to take the front wheel off and open the wheel well just to change a headlight??? who thought of that?)

The other reason we got this car is that we think this car could be the 500k+ mile car for us. So we are planning to run it until it dies, and change the battery when that dies first (maybe at that time we can get an even bigger/new version battery). And I watch my parents drive, they are fine but I think Autopilot will keep improving and helping my wife and I remain very active as we get older.

So we decided who cares what people think- its good for us in the future, its the safest thing for our kids, its good for the environment (we have solar panels 3 years before the MY) and its the right size for most things. We are not going to get rid of the Sienna because honestly- the AWD Sienna is HUGE and if you put snow tires on it it can go through anything. Someday the 2009 will be owned by one of our kids. And the MY- that will be ours into retirement- fingers crossed.

I still think though you'll want some sort of faster charger at home. As I type this my MY is gearing up for a 240 mile round trip tomorrow and I'm charging up to 290 range.

Good luck with your decision... I'm from NY- Hudson Valley so feel free to message me if you have any specific questions.

PS- Now if you really want people to look at you... just wait for the Cyber Truck...

Thanks! Hudson Valley's a nice area. We've been up there a few times for soccer games, apple picking, and that pumpkin blaze near the Tap.

I agree with you that it makes sense to get a safe vehicle, since we can all replace things but not ourselves or our family. But, it's not like the Subaru I am looking at is a death trap (Honda Civic del Sol? lol)... in fact, they're all Safety Pick Plus by the IIHS rating system. I agree that the Tesla results are the best, though. There are a LOT of stories of people that walked away from head-to-heads or car vs nature crashes and walked away (and plenty where they didn't, I'm sure...)

Regarding the Outback, yeah, I formerly owned a 2011 Outback and I got good at turning the wheel full to one side, pulling back the wheel well lining, and reinstalling new bulbs. For the future, it makes sense to look for H7LL (long life) bulbs since they are just a pain. I would have considered LED's for longer durability but they were expensive and at the time the technology wasn't there yet unless it had a giant heatsink which would have been a challenge installing in that cramped space. The new ones no longer have this "feature" and have LED's - and some steering responsive LED's - but I do have family with a 2016 & 2017 model Outback and they both have "normal" headlight access through the top of the hood, though I usually have to remove the air filter box and battery to get to it because I have chubby hands, I guess.

My thought is that if I can get 200k out of the battery - which Tesla suggests would leave you with around 90% of the original range/capacity - for me that'll be like 15+ years anyway, and I'll probably want something new. It would be cool if I didn't want anything new, but nonetheless, 200k is my target goal. What are your thoughts on road salts and brines? Since you're also nearby I figure we have a similar climate. Rust kills electrics equally as an ICE car, right?

We considered Solar Panels, but the Tesla product was about 30-40% more compared to other local vendors that used LG or Panasonic panels. I don't deny that the Tesla software system is beautifully aesthetic, but I can't justify $10k+ just to get it. Perhaps in time when it comes down, we'll look at it. There aren't as lucrative opportunities for rebates and discounts anymore here in NJ - they're phasing out the SREC programs and the Federal Tax Credit is phasing out as well.

I won't discount the minivan outright, but I do have to commute regardless of the weather. So when the governor declares a state of emergency and there's a foot or two of snow on the ground and continuing with blizzard conditions, I still have to drive to work. And more importantly, if I'm at work when the blizzard hits, when my shift ends, I can make it home and not have to spend the night here like some of us are forced to. Minivans tend to have less ground clearance - I think I have like 8 1/2" of clearance in my Subaru.

Even if I did a day trip down to the shore areas, I'm looking at around 140-150 miles round trip - and I've never done a down-and-back trip. I'm fortunate to have family that live in the general area so I would have access to plug in for a few hours at least.

And at home, if I have the 120v20a outlet installed (which is pretty much all we can have done for around $100 unless we pay $1200+ to change the box and run the new 240v circuit) I would get:

120v @ (20A*80% safety continuous pull) = 1.92 kW/h * 20% efficiency losses = 1.54 kW/h = ~6.1 miles per hour at a 250Wh/Mi

I have at minimum 12 hours to charge at home - maybe not continuously - which would bring in 75 miles of range. I can supplement with the local Supercharger or Electrify America sites if I needed to, or the 7.2 kW public Chargepoint chargers near a park (all have a fee), but there are options to avoid the major electrical work.

If the SR+ has 250 miles of range at 100% charge, that might be worth looking at despite RWD instead of AWD. I'd probably charge to 80%, which would give me 200 miles of range, but that seems like enough for nearly all my circumstances. Assuming it's capable for the winter. I'm going to see if I can find some videos that highlight an SR+ in snow with all-seasons.

Cybertruck is a hard no.

In my area, the Model 3 is becoming relatively ubiquitous to the point where it's not unusual to pass one on the road. But I can see how it can stick out in areas where they aren't as common on the road.

To me, it's less about the "flashiness" and more of a stereotyped "superiority" image of Tesla owners that I've noticed. Definitely not all owners. But I've gotten chewed out by a Tesla owner for even daring to consider a non-EV or even a PHEV. As far as he/she was concerned, a Tesla is the only choice if you care about the future. Even on here, there was a poster complaining about Leaf owners because they have to share the public charging stations with them. We don't have Tesla-only Superchargers here, so, yes, you have to share.

It seems to result in a formation of polar extremes -- Tesla-haters and Tesla-lovers -- which is something I really don't think I want to get dragged into just by association of owning a Tesla. I will admit, that has weighed on my deliberation between the Model Y and something else.

That's great, and I hope the trend of more and more of them on the road continues. The more they lose their "wow" factor, the better it would be for my situation. I'm a big supporter of green technology and the environment, but it has to be practical. I suppose you'd group me with the moderates. I love what they're doing, but I am not willing to spend that money just for the sake of that - since that money can be spent on other tangible things, like food donations to the town pantry, or paying down my mortgage, etc.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

 

[TrevTremaine]

From my perspective, we've owned several Subies, loved them for what they are. Our 2017 Forester XT, though, has not been flawless. We've had substantial repair bills even though it's been driven lightly, including a/c going on us, brakes and rotors (at ~30K km), and now the motor for the rear hatch is now seemingly done. By that same measure, my 2017 Model S has had but one issue - the rear camera that was replaced under warranty - only had to do maintenance since it's a lease.

Would I buy the Y? Not for 2020. We'll look at the Y for 2021 once the build quality issues have been resolved. I'd hold out until at least then. Tesla has had first year issues pretty much with every model. Plus, I'm never going to buy a vehicle without a test drive - period. The experience of spending even a little time behind the wheel of a new car has enough sway to tell you whether it works for you or not. In my opinion, rushing to buy sometime, especially what's your second most expensive possession is a mistake and leaving an awful lot to chance.

 

[Pilot1226]

All good points. At this point I have resigned myself to the fact that I will have to wait until next summer at the least. Hopefully this will give me the ability to see how the SR+ compares to the LR AWD models, along with giving them a little time to figure out any manufacturing issues they might be having as well.

Have watched a few Model 3 SR+ and LR AWD winter driving videos on YouTube and found a couple with all season tires. Hoping to see some with a Model Y AWD on the stock all season next winter for comparison.