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Between a Model Y and a Subaru Outback

Pilot1226

Member
Dec 20, 2019
355
157
USA
I have, thanks. I’m kind of viewing tires as a wash, but I do expect to need tires about twice as often for an EV compared to ICE. So, in a nutshell, about every 2 years for a Tesla, compared with my general track record of 4 years in my Subarus.

I am planning for oil changes for my turbo Outback to be around $75 per, 4 times a year. So, $300. I’m making tire rotations a wash, since both cars would need it. Aside from that I am looking at a 30k interval for front and rear differential fluid changes, brake fluid changes (wash)… at 60k, spark plugs which are a beast on these Boxer engines… last I checked it was $250. I also figure the 12V battery is probably a wash, although it seems Teslas may need them a little quicker due to demand on the unit.

In the long run I know there are things like catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, and other combustion related components that will need maintenance or repair/replacement. I figure these are also a wash, along with engine and powertrain repairs, because it’s not outlandish to think that at some point my MCU, battery, drive motors, etc will need some type of repair or replacement. Along with common suspension components.

Anyway, I am totally on board and ready to sign, once the planets align, and we get the Federal Credit, State Credit, and most challenging of all: convincing my wife.

I’m a little concerned at the idea of the “instant” rebate for EVs as mentioned in the link above. I’m curious if they’d truly pass along the full credit to customers or if they’d mark up the cost of the car.

I also have to say that my Subarus have generally been pretty good aside from the maintenance requirements. Thinking back to my last several cars:

Honda Civic had a speedometer/cluster fail at 80k, oxygen sensor fail at 50k, and kept up with all maintenance. Nissan Sentra had an oxygen sensor fail at 70k, mass air flow sensor fail at 85k. Subaru Legacy was good for the 80k/8y of ownership - no problems or repairs. Subaru Outback #1 needed an exhaust related repair around the 80k mark, then had a torque converter fail around 90k. Forester was leased so nothing needed. Did have a few things corrected under recall/warranty TSB. Outback #2 that I have now is my first turbo. Don’t know what reliability will be like. Newer engine model, direct injection… who knows. The FA20 had a habit of throwing rods or failed bearings, but allegedly the FA24 it’s based on was engineered to fix said problems. There are some early reports of oil seal leaks and problems.

Shrug.

I expect things to break, it’s fine. What isn’t fine is a catastrophic failure a few years into ownership after warranty ends. I expect more longevity than that. The boogeyman with the Subarus is their CVT, which often costs more than the value of the car to repair it when it fails.
 
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Jul 20, 2012
414
232
Houston, TX
Outback has 2" more ground clearance but only 11% more cargo area. Model Y has 3500lbs towing capacity vs 2,700lbs with the Outback, but arguably the Outback would be able to travel a little further between refuelling stops... Not sure about other utilitarian aspects.

In the automotive world 2” clearance is a lot. Put it this way, would you rather you penis be 6” or 8”? Clearance matters like that when it comes to overlanding and ground clearance.

11% more is still more, which means more utility.

536 miles range (probably even with a bike rack) vs. 326 (on a good day with no headwind, no hills and perfect ambient temp) is hardly “a little further”.

If you can’t see the more utilitarian aspects of an outback, I can’t help you there.

If a factory Y looked like this Id say you have a point. But it doesn’t. :
 

cusetownusa

Member
Jan 29, 2020
528
874
Syracuse NY
In the automotive world 2” clearance is a lot. Put it this way, would you rather you penis be 6” or 8”? Clearance matters like that when it comes to overlanding and ground clearance.

11% more is still more, which means more utility.

536 miles range (probably even with a bike rack) vs. 326 (on a good day with no headwind, no hills and perfect ambient temp) is hardly “a little further”.

If you can’t see the more utilitarian aspects of an outback, I can’t help you there.

If a factory Y looked like this Id say you have a point. But it doesn’t. :

I like that look a lot. Where can I find what kind of wheels, tires, and I am assuming wrap, that he has?
 

Pilot1226

Member
Dec 20, 2019
355
157
USA
2” ground clearance doesn’t mean anything to be except for times of snow on the road, which gets plowed reasonably fast. I don’t overland or off-road so the extra ground clearance is not needed. Utility is a nice thing to have, but I’m hauling soccer balls and baseball stuff - not lumber and outdoorsy stuff.
 
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GasGuzzler

Member
Feb 8, 2021
13
3
Santa Clara
Hi all,

Long time lurker but first post here.

Long story short, I’m leasing a Subaru Forester. It was a necessary thing at the time, it replaced my Subaru Outback which was around 8 years old with nearly 100k miles. There were a lot of things that needed to get done at once (Big timing belt service, brakes, tires) so I chose to trade in, get a check for the value of the Outback, and put down $0 towards my lease on the Forester.

My lease ends January of 2022, which is a little over 19 months away. I could trade-in the lease and take a financial hit if the numbers were close but don’t want to do so now that the pandemic has caused the used car market to fall out. Values went from around $23k on Carvana down to around $20k over the last month.

My commute is pretty simple, I drive through my town for about 2 miles, get on a 55 mph highway for about 4 miles, and then drive through about 4 miles of city traffic, and then about another mile of city at the end. It’s about 10 miles each way. I have 1 or 2 alternate routes if the traffic is bad that is all highway, but ends up being closer to 20 miles each way. They’re also toll highways and I’m kind of cheap in that regard I guess, but $3 each way every day does add up.

In the summer I will do 3 or 4 trips Per week to work from shore areas (we relocate to be with family in the summer once the kids are out of school) ... these commutes are all highway and about 60 miles each way. No avoiding the tolls this way!

My work is in the planning stages for chargers. We don’t have them yet. I’m involved with the plans and I am trying to get them to put in 6-20 or 14-30 outlets rather than a ChargePoint. Out lot is private and not accessible to the public so we can’t be a destination partner for Tesla. I also need to figure out a way to Bill users as the employer will not provide free electricity.

Anyway I mention the above because that would be enough to help me not have to charge when I’m at the shore doing the 120 mile trip in the summer and not have to rely on Supercharging and not have to plug in at those shore houses. I’d also likely use regular household charging at home since I drive less than 30 miles a day including the 20 for work.

I’m comparing the Outback Limited XT or Touring XT specifically to the Model Y. I drove a Model 3 before the world shut down and I enjoyed it, but as a dad that is involved with my two kids’ sports (they’re both under 10) I have to have the cargo capacity to hold soccer and baseball gear.

I also foresee this becoming the family Trip car unless we can’t fit everything, or do a long vacation, which we would use my wife’s Honda Pilot.

Ideally the Model Y would eventually take the place of the Pilot and the Mrs. could get a smaller car in the future when we are comfortable with the Y. I am expecting to have to pursue the roof rack solution for that, which is fine for the couple times a year I’d need it. I could also consider the trailer hitch for bike rack purposes as well.

Anyway at quick glance it looks like the sticker plus State tax ends up pushing the Outback Touring XT up near $43-44k. In NJ we have a new benefit this year with up to $5000 off an EV depending on range, so the $53000 sticker with destination on the Model Y would become $48000. There’s also no state tax on an EV sale here.

It looks like with gas being around $2.50 per gallon I would save around $1000 per year with the Y after electricity costs are factored in. I pay $0.17 per kWh including supply and delivery, and we don’t have time of use. I also factored an 80% charging efficiency rating with 120V compared to 90% with 240V.

I am considering 240 V, but this requires major electrical panel upgrades as it is maxed and has been combined and tandem’ed already. I know of the federal rebate related to EVSE charging stuff, but it’s unlikely I would do this by year end when it expires. Perhaps it will get extended again, and then I will pursue a 14-30 or 14-50 solution (maybe even the HWC)...

I’ve read a few posts here comparing Eyesight from Subaru and AP. I don’t like the slowing down for lights and stop signs and don’t like the phantom braking thing. I have no interest in FSD as I enjoy driving, but I will admit I do use adaptive cruise in traffic to help take stress out of rush hour commutes. To that, my Subaru has performed excellent.

My pet peeve about the Subaru system is that I have lane keep and not lane centering. This means I ping pong off the boundary of the lane rather than actively stay centered. The 2020 Subaru now have Lane Centering. Also, the car is very cautious to accelerate when the traffic ahead turns off into a parking lot, like a hard 90 degree right turn. It’s not as natural as me where I project them to be moved and modify my speed as such. This results in horn honks behind me and people cutting in from the middle lane ahead of me.

I’m just hoping to buy a car that I can trust will make it at least 10 years but depreciation isn’t important as this next purchase will likely be driven until the wheels drop off.

My biggest concerns are the range in summer with those commutes. I live in NJ and we get snowy winters, so I believe i would be best suited for the AWD LR that is out currently.

I would consider a SR AWD if such a thing was released as long as I had that work charging solution in place.

Things like the new Mini electric are interesting but the short 120ish mile range cross it off the list. Which is a shame, because I could buy that for around $16k after federal and state rebates.

I’d need to time this right if I wasn’t trading in to Tesla, as I’d just have to hold the lease until it ended and turn it back in at a loss of $360 per month if I was early. Subaru is already sending me advertisements to get into the new Outback with no lease end penalty.

Things I am going to miss on the Y are potentially the heated steering wheel and auto dimming side mirrors. I’m sure I will get used to no CarPlay as I drive more and more. I am concerned about no spare tire in the event of a failure, and I might have to get a Modern Spare kit.

Things that concern me about long term ownership of the Subaru is the direct injection engine which seems like all brands have carbon buildup over time and the transmission is a CVT which is hard and expensive to repair when things start to fail.

I’ve already checked PlugShare and ABRP and I have lots of Supercharger options near me and off the highways. Everything seems doable.

what are your thoughts?
The effort that went into writing this question. Bravo!!
 
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dhrivnak

Active Member
Jan 8, 2011
4,451
3,690
NE Tennessee
Hi all,

Long time lurker but first post here.

Long story short, I’m leasing a Subaru Forester. It was a necessary thing at the time, it replaced my Subaru Outback which was around 8 years old with nearly 100k miles. There were a lot of things that needed to get done at once (Big timing belt service, brakes, tires) so I chose to trade in, get a check for the value of the Outback, and put down $0 towards my lease on the Forester.

My lease ends January of 2022, which is a little over 19 months away. I could trade-in the lease and take a financial hit if the numbers were close but don’t want to do so now that the pandemic has caused the used car market to fall out. Values went from around $23k on Carvana down to around $20k over the last month.

My commute is pretty simple, I drive through my town for about 2 miles, get on a 55 mph highway for about 4 miles, and then drive through about 4 miles of city traffic, and then about another mile of city at the end. It’s about 10 miles each way. I have 1 or 2 alternate routes if the traffic is bad that is all highway, but ends up being closer to 20 miles each way. They’re also toll highways and I’m kind of cheap in that regard I guess, but $3 each way every day does add up.

In the summer I will do 3 or 4 trips Per week to work from shore areas (we relocate to be with family in the summer once the kids are out of school) ... these commutes are all highway and about 60 miles each way. No avoiding the tolls this way!

My work is in the planning stages for chargers. We don’t have them yet. I’m involved with the plans and I am trying to get them to put in 6-20 or 14-30 outlets rather than a ChargePoint. Out lot is private and not accessible to the public so we can’t be a destination partner for Tesla. I also need to figure out a way to Bill users as the employer will not provide free electricity.

Anyway I mention the above because that would be enough to help me not have to charge when I’m at the shore doing the 120 mile trip in the summer and not have to rely on Supercharging and not have to plug in at those shore houses. I’d also likely use regular household charging at home since I drive less than 30 miles a day including the 20 for work.

I’m comparing the Outback Limited XT or Touring XT specifically to the Model Y. I drove a Model 3 before the world shut down and I enjoyed it, but as a dad that is involved with my two kids’ sports (they’re both under 10) I have to have the cargo capacity to hold soccer and baseball gear.

I also foresee this becoming the family Trip car unless we can’t fit everything, or do a long vacation, which we would use my wife’s Honda Pilot.

Ideally the Model Y would eventually take the place of the Pilot and the Mrs. could get a smaller car in the future when we are comfortable with the Y. I am expecting to have to pursue the roof rack solution for that, which is fine for the couple times a year I’d need it. I could also consider the trailer hitch for bike rack purposes as well.

Anyway at quick glance it looks like the sticker plus State tax ends up pushing the Outback Touring XT up near $43-44k. In NJ we have a new benefit this year with up to $5000 off an EV depending on range, so the $53000 sticker with destination on the Model Y would become $48000. There’s also no state tax on an EV sale here.

It looks like with gas being around $2.50 per gallon I would save around $1000 per year with the Y after electricity costs are factored in. I pay $0.17 per kWh including supply and delivery, and we don’t have time of use. I also factored an 80% charging efficiency rating with 120V compared to 90% with 240V.

I am considering 240 V, but this requires major electrical panel upgrades as it is maxed and has been combined and tandem’ed already. I know of the federal rebate related to EVSE charging stuff, but it’s unlikely I would do this by year end when it expires. Perhaps it will get extended again, and then I will pursue a 14-30 or 14-50 solution (maybe even the HWC)...

I’ve read a few posts here comparing Eyesight from Subaru and AP. I don’t like the slowing down for lights and stop signs and don’t like the phantom braking thing. I have no interest in FSD as I enjoy driving, but I will admit I do use adaptive cruise in traffic to help take stress out of rush hour commutes. To that, my Subaru has performed excellent.

My pet peeve about the Subaru system is that I have lane keep and not lane centering. This means I ping pong off the boundary of the lane rather than actively stay centered. The 2020 Subaru now have Lane Centering. Also, the car is very cautious to accelerate when the traffic ahead turns off into a parking lot, like a hard 90 degree right turn. It’s not as natural as me where I project them to be moved and modify my speed as such. This results in horn honks behind me and people cutting in from the middle lane ahead of me.

I’m just hoping to buy a car that I can trust will make it at least 10 years but depreciation isn’t important as this next purchase will likely be driven until the wheels drop off.

My biggest concerns are the range in summer with those commutes. I live in NJ and we get snowy winters, so I believe i would be best suited for the AWD LR that is out currently.

I would consider a SR AWD if such a thing was released as long as I had that work charging solution in place.

Things like the new Mini electric are interesting but the short 120ish mile range cross it off the list. Which is a shame, because I could buy that for around $16k after federal and state rebates.

I’d need to time this right if I wasn’t trading in to Tesla, as I’d just have to hold the lease until it ended and turn it back in at a loss of $360 per month if I was early. Subaru is already sending me advertisements to get into the new Outback with no lease end penalty.

Things I am going to miss on the Y are potentially the heated steering wheel and auto dimming side mirrors. I’m sure I will get used to no CarPlay as I drive more and more. I am concerned about no spare tire in the event of a failure, and I might have to get a Modern Spare kit.

Things that concern me about long term ownership of the Subaru is the direct injection engine which seems like all brands have carbon buildup over time and the transmission is a CVT which is hard and expensive to repair when things start to fail.

I’ve already checked PlugShare and ABRP and I have lots of Supercharger options near me and off the highways. Everything seems doable.

what are your thoughts?
It looks like a Model Y would easily cover you. But if nervous about the jump to all electric the RAV4 Prime is also an option to give you EV driving around town and gas for the trips. But after that I’ll bet your next car will be all electric.
 

Pilot1226

Member
Dec 20, 2019
355
157
USA
Yes. I was thinking the same - the R4Prime would just be a bridge and the more I drove in electric more the more I would just want a full EV.

I’m also watching Toyota’s solid state development and when Tesla is going to roll out those new battery cells from battery day. While range won’t be substantially improved, it is suggestive that they can do more cycles before 80% max capacity charge degradation
 
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skiwhmts

Member
Feb 12, 2021
46
41
New England
I think that Subarus are great but times change. I think they should put the Rav4 Prime drive train or similar in Subarus for now. That would be an awesome car. I have bought alot of Subarus for family members because the are so safe. I just bought a 2020 Toyota Prius Prime Limited PHEV as a spare car while I am waiting for the right EV to come along. It is a lot of fun. Its small and cheap to operate and I do not worry about it. That makes it great car to take to the city, leave at the airport, loan it to family members etc. The one thing that is great is the ride quality. The Prius Primes ride quality is much more compliant and smoother than the Model Y. I test drove them back to back and its no contest. I find the Model Y's ride quality unnecessarily stiff and jaring. Due to the roads around where I live its a deal breaker for me. That is why I am waiting for air suspension or 18" wheel option on the Y or I will get a Tesla S in the future instead.
 

tmp131

Member
Apr 27, 2019
77
73
Louisiana
I think that Subarus are great but times change. I think they should put the Rav4 Prime drive train or similar in Subarus for now. That would be an awesome car. I have bought alot of Subarus for family members because the are so safe. I just bought a 2020 Toyota Prius Prime Limited PHEV as a spare car while I am waiting for the right EV to come along. It is a lot of fun. Its small and cheap to operate and I do not worry about it. That makes it great car to take to the city, leave at the airport, loan it to family members etc. The one thing that is great is the ride quality. The Prius Primes ride quality is much more compliant and smoother than the Model Y. I test drove them back to back and its no contest. I find the Model Y's ride quality unnecessarily stiff and jaring. Due to the roads around where I live its a deal breaker for me. That is why I am waiting for air suspension or 18" wheel option on the Y or I will get a Tesla S in the future instead.
I would think Model Y ride quality would be better than the Prius Prime.
 

skiwhmts

Member
Feb 12, 2021
46
41
New England
You would think so but surprisingly no. The Prius Prime may be slow and boring but its ride quality is better the Tesla Y's. And the Subaru Outback is also better. I am not talking handling just ride quality. I have two BMW's with adaptive suspensions and they are also better. The Tesla Y is set up as a stiff european ride right now. Perhaps its due to its power and torque and the handling it requires. If you roads are good you might be fine but not for Northern New England. If the Tesla Y had a adaptive suspension shocks that would help. Tesla must have its reasons, maybe a softer ride gets people sick with the torque but I think they will offer something to address this in the future.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,296
6,858
Canyon Lake,CA
Prius Prime is optimized for fuel economy and family passenger space. It has poor performance, does not handle will, has skinny tires. Provides good value and low operating costs.

Tesla is optimized to use no gasoline at all. Give a thrilling performance ride with great handling. Seating for 5-7. Good storage capacity plus the handy frunk. Lowest running costs and you can fuel in your garage and never need to stop at gas stations for daily use.

Subaru burns gasoline only. Performance is boring but it has some light off roading capability.

Hard to see how people are cross shopping for these 3 vehicles, when in reality they are designed for 3 different customers.
 

spokey

Member
Aug 8, 2020
610
235
Flagtown
Actually I have both an Outback and MY. The MY ride is a bit harder, but they are similar. The MY is actually a little wider. The storage specs aren't that different but the usability of the space seems significantly better for the Outback.

I liked the Outback enough that at one point I wrote to Subaru basically begging them to make an EV version. If it had range, I'd have replaced the current one in a heartbeat.

Before buying the MY, I looked at the Niro & Kona but never seriously due to the limited range. But I've been happy with the MY. The space has been good enough. And I do love turning on the climate in this cold without firing up a gas engine. I do wish the UI was better. Particularly the voice recognition.
 
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spokey

Member
Aug 8, 2020
610
235
Flagtown
Mine is supposed to get picked up by the youngest but she still can't come east to get it. She is thinking maybe after everyone gets their covid vaccines (thought I don't think the 2 yo gets one). I think I need a new battery at this point. It's getting started if I crank it once a week, but barely. I'm still using it a bit for stuff like hauling home salt bags for the water softener. Seems like a better choice to have salt in a car I'm getting rid of than one I'm keeping that cost over double the old one. Plus I'm a little worried about that 160(?) lb limit on the rear floor cover of the MY
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,296
6,858
Canyon Lake,CA
Common comment that new owners keep an gasser in the garage "just in case". They end up never using it.

Similar with someone that might want to keep an extra Subaru (backwards spells U R a Bus). for those rare occasions when they need additional ground clearance. The extra car usually just ends up collecting dust because the Tesla is just so much more fun to drive and no need to buy expensive and polluting gasoline.

In 99% of usage the Tesla is the better ride.

When I can get an ICE company to come to my house and fill it up every morning, at no cost, then I might consider it.
 
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Giraffe950

Member
Nov 16, 2020
79
72
USA
My Model 3 killed 2 Subaru batteries.

....Didn’t want to drive the Subaru enough to keep the 12v charged, but kept it around “just in case.” Never ended up needing it.
I’m planning on keeping my Subaru for a while “just in case “. I’ve already resigned myself to driving it to work once every other week so it doesn’t break down from disuse. We’ll see how things actually work out once I get the Y.
 
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Gwgan

Almost a wagon
Aug 11, 2013
2,886
2,132
Maine
If you roads are good you might be fine but not for Northern New England. If the Tesla Y had a adaptive suspension shocks that would help.
I’m guessing Adaptive suspension will happen for the Y once Tesla gets into a stride from the new factories. The stiff ride on rough roads is one reason we opted to hold on to the old X and not trade for a new Y.
 
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Pilot1226

Member
Dec 20, 2019
355
157
USA
I know this thread was focused on the Y, but assuming I make this my commuter and local car and the Mrs. drives the vacation car or we switch if I am bringing the kids somewhere.

I found the rear seats a little tight in the 3, but the SR+ has a pretty solid price point especially if the tax credits come back.

Does the 3 SR+ have a heated wheel and heat pump or has that not been changed yet?
 

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