TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Beware of Faraday Future and its Potential to Harm the U.S. EV Industry

Discussion in 'Tesla Motors' started by Allante, Apr 22, 2016.

  1. Allante

    Allante Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Although FF generally has been dismissed on this forum as vaporware, recent reporting shows many reasons to be worried about the ability of U.S. EV firms such as Tesla to compete with FF. These reports (Google "Faraday Future Jia Yeuting lecar" and read reports from the Guardian, Clean Technica, and elecrek.co) establish that FF is owned by Chinese entrepreneur Yeuting who has received billions of dollars in subsidies from the Chinese government. Thus, it is clear that the Chinese government is bankrolling FF and its U.S. operations.

    Am I the only one apprehensive about that link? Chinese market manipulation and illegal subsidies in many industries (steel, air, autos) are well known to create an unlevel playing field and unfair competition in the U.S. I fear innovators like Tesla who obey competition laws are going to run smack into that morass. I also fear that FF will continue to poach top talent from U.S. firms to the detriment of the U.S. industry and to the benefit of the Chinese government.

    Am I being xenophobic or crazy in fearing that the U.S. EV industry will be harmed by FF, which is a shill for the Chinese government?
     
  2. drinkerofkoolaid

    drinkerofkoolaid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,624
    Location:
    F
    #2 drinkerofkoolaid, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
    It is not possible for China to flood the US market with cheap batteries, nor would it be in China's interest to do so. It might be in China's interest to heavily subsidize the expansion of the EV supply chain. This would be a huge asset for US producers, and would be a huge benefit for Tesla, and all automobile manufacturers seeking to produce EVs.

    FF could be a legitimate competitor ~2020 if it still exists. FF has yet to prove it can produce a functional and affordable vehicle. The car FF showed off in Beijing was a demo video for a vehicle that looks faraway out there, and doesn't presently exist. IF FF can make a competitive EV by 2020, Tesla will probably have access to the same suppliers, assuming Tesla wants or needs access.

    II think if FF is a real company, and not an experiment by a few Chinese billionaires, it will end up being a battery manufacturer and a major player in the rapid expansion of the EV supply chain.
     
  3. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    The only thing FF has demonstrated so far is its incompetence. I don't think the US car industry needs to worry too much.
     
    • Funny x 2
  4. Allante

    Allante Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Washington, DC

    @
    drinkerofkoolaid -- I am not concerned about batteries. My fear is this: The Chinese government is using FF to poach top tier talent from Tesla, Apple, Google, etc. to develop and transfer technology and IP to China in order to build China's EV industry. Without such massive subsidies, no private company could afford to build a brand-new plant and pay the high bonuses and salaries necessary to poach employees from Tesla et al. Without the Chinese government's deep pockets, it would take a decade or more to accomplish what FF already has. Indeed, the company boasted that construction of its plant would normally take 4 years, but thanks to its bankrollers, it will do so in just over one year.
     
  5. drinkerofkoolaid

    drinkerofkoolaid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,624
    Location:
    F
    This is extremely unlikely.
     
  6. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2011
    Messages:
    14,241
    Location:
    Columbia River Gorge
    Though not talked about much, China's solar subsidies were a key factor in Solyndra going under. Solyndra: $1.2 billion in contracts undercut by China

    I laughed at Faraday's concept car and lack of preparedness. But I also take them seriously. I believe they'll have a car out. While I believe competition is good for all companies (and Elon's goal is sustainable transport, brand agnostic), it would be awful if China undercut the market and harmed a fledgling industry.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Dislike x 1
  7. McRat

    McRat Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,256
    Location:
    Norco, CA
    If you drove the CODA, you wouldn't be so worried. :D
    It was OK, but ...
     
  8. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,350
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Worry when they can execute on ... well... anything. Tesla has also shown that cars aren't exactly easy too.
     
  9. Allante

    Allante Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    @bonnie -- I too believe in strong, robust, and FAIR competition. As much as I appreciate what Elon and his company have done, nothing would make me happier than to see Apple introduce a superior car, followed by Tesla and Apple (and maybe others) leapfrogging each other over the next decade.

    But I truly fear FF, given its origins. This company is not playing by the same set of rules as Tesla and Apple.

    The Solyndra story is very real and very scary. Also not reported very widely is that both A123 and Fisker are now Chinese-owned. Again, another story of American talent, technology, and IP being poached and transferred to China, in a scheme financed by their government.
     
  10. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,397
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Spending billions of dollars, and building vehicles, doesn't guarantee success.

    Not only do I not think FF will be successful, I think their demise will be used as a cautionary tale for years to come.

    Just my opinion.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. larmor

    larmor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    700
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    I am worried that they don't execute. Since negativity on an EV will spread to all EVs. The market is huge, but the players and volume, are relatively speaking small. It is actually important that FF gets their product right, don't want to see a repeat of hoverboard fires or fisker disasters...
     
  12. Allante

    Allante Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Washington, DC

    Correct that money isn't everything -- but when combined with leading engineers and managers from Tesla, BMW's i team, GM's Volt team, and others, I start to worry. They have most of the ingredients necessary to succeed. All depends on Jia Yeuting's ability to execute.
     
  13. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Minnesota
    As an aside, anyone else find it interesting that the initials/shorthand for Faraday Futures and Fossil Fuels is the same?
     
    • Funny x 1
  14. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,651
    Location:
    Slovenia, Europe
    FF is missing one key ingredient ... a single person with his own vision, ideas, knowledge, stubbornness and ego. And executional power to change people he sees unfit for the job.

    What is there at FF. I just see big pile of cash and even bigger pile of confusion.
    Lot of details and no big picture.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. Fallenone

    Fallenone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,457
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, CA
    I'm not sure Jia's company is receiving a lot of government incentives, that's BYD's specialty. Jia made his fortune with his Netflix-like on-line video streaming service. Then started to expand to other products, starting with TV, then smartphone (mimicking Steve Jobs styly in announcing products, hence nicknamed Jia-bos in China), now EV. He's playing the capital market quite well, using his own shares of LeTV as collateral to raise capital for his new ventures.

    Recently China has tightened up private capital outflow out of China. This could be a reason why FF's factory was delayed.
     
    • Informative x 1
  16. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    15,487
    Elaborate on what they've accomplished? I haven't been keeping up.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. drinkerofkoolaid

    drinkerofkoolaid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,624
    Location:
    F
    #18 drinkerofkoolaid, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
    Baidu sounds more like a Tesla partner than a competitor. Semi related, Elon Musk and Jack Ma appear to have a very good relationship.

    Without going right into details, the article may as well have said Baidu hired some random employee who still works for Tesla or used to work for Tesla. The article doesn't say who the engineer is, and doesn't say he was poached, or left Tesla. It's possible the engineer still works for Tesla.


    I'm very confident Tesla has more than a few engineers working on Autonomous Driving.
    More importantly, Tesla has a partnership with Baidu in China. A while back Elon mentioned Tesla was working with Baidu on GPS Navigation and Autonomous Driving. (See article below)


    Musk says Tesla negotiating with China on local production

    Speaking of Faraday Future, I wouldn't be surprised if FF is a secret Tesla partner. Elon has made it clear he is happy to share his technology with any interested parties, and FF is basically planning to build its factory next to Tesla's.

    This article from yesterday almost confirms it:
    Faraday Future hires Tesla exec to manage its $1 billion EV factory in Nevada

     
  18. Paddy

    Paddy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    U.K.
    .... like baidu is a threat to google (other than in markets where google is blocked).

    Chinese companies can innovate, but at the moment only in areas where the technology road has already been built. I don't think that applies to EVs yet.
     
  19. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,885
    Location:
    San Luis Obispo, CA

Share This Page