Beware of Model X

[notrhj]

My weatherstripping cracked on the pano roof of the car and started leaking water. Is that considered ‘reliable’? To a fanboy, yes. To a neutral observer, no.

BTW it was also going to cost me $650 to fix, as the whole Pano would have to be replaced, according to Tesla (and verified at an independent Tesla certified body shop).

I fixed it by myself.

I guess the numerous drive train failures on the Y didn’t make the cut in the survey eh?

BTW, my S has had not one, but two drivetrain replacements under warranty. Also, the touch screen, rear window glass, rear hatch glass, the whole front dash, steering wheel buttons that stopped working, two door handles that stopped working, and some more which I am forgetting.

On my Model 3, there have been fewer issues, but not trouble free, as you are whitewashing here.

So you replaced the whole pano roof yourself as verified by Tesla and an independent body shop ?
Amazing

I’m not the one conflating here just going by independent data, and CR is far from fanboy Tesla friendly.

Your S certainly sounds trouble prone, bordering on a lemon.
‘But that’s not everyone’s experience, is it ?

Data still shows that other car makers like Benz Audi, BMW after decades in the business still have issues with every subsystem in the cars they market. Not whitewash but maybe a broad brush. They still, after all this time, haven’t even come close to the reliability and satisfaction of the Japanese manufacturer. But Tesla should meet and exceed the Japanese, everyone else gets a pass ?

Satisfaction and sales Data still show that Tesla as the new kid on the block is trying.

‘Hope you get a chance to test drive that Eqs and maybe even our east coast phantom Escalade.

As a past Benz owner / enthusiast the EQS especially the amg variant left me……. disappointed.

Still, Vote with your wallet that’s the only thing the free market understands

 

[_Redshift_]

So you replaced the whole pano roof yourself as verified by Tesla and an independent body shop ?
Amazing

I’m not the one conflating here just going by independent data, and CR is far from fanboy Tesla friendly.

Your S certainly sounds trouble prone, bordering on a lemon.
‘But that’s not everyone’s experience, is it ?

Data still shows that other car makers like Benz Audi, BMW after decades in the business still have issues with every subsystem in the cars they market. Not whitewash but maybe a broad brush. They still, after all this time, haven’t even come close to the reliability and satisfaction of the Japanese manufacturer. But Tesla should meet and exceed the Japanese, everyone else gets a pass ?

Satisfaction and sales Data still show that Tesla as the new kid on the block is trying.

‘Hope you get a chance to test drive that Eqs and maybe even our east coast phantom Escalade.

As a past Benz owner / enthusiast the EQS especially the amg variant left me……. disappointed.

Still, Vote with your wallet that’s the only thing the free market understands

I did not replace the pano roof. I added some adhesive backed rubber strip that covered the cracked weather strip area. It works, but the piano roof opening and closing causes a bit of issue if done repeatedly. I just don’t open the pano roof anymore.

As far as this being a rare experience- ask around with early adopters of Tesla like me. Most will tell you similar stories. I’d hazard a guess that nearly 90% had 1-2 issues minimum.

Yes, these were early days. All startups go through some pain before mastering the craft of building a reliable product. Thanks in major part to Tesla treating early adopters very well at the service center, most of us did not complain.

That situation was never going to last long, we knew that. But, to do a complete 180 like they have done now, it’s also not sustainable in the long run.

Moreover, the product is still not reliable. My 3 has had numerous windshield chips that show up only at a certain sunlight angle from day one. I showed these to Tesla 7 days after delivery and they were very argumentative that they might have been caused by me. I asked them to see for themselves that there were no surface chips, these were embedded inside the glass. No dice. There have been other issues, like for check straps that keep getting replaced because they make this annoying cracking sound when the doors are opened or closed. Replaced twice after arguing many times that they come under warranty. Driver side B pillar molding that came off (and replaced by Tesla) because it detached from the inner housing. Right now I have a ‘front safety restraint system fault, please take it to service’ warning for which I have the appointment on the 20th. Though the 3 has far fewer issues, we are comparing it to a car that essentially was in the shop every quarter of the year for the first 2-3 years.

 

[ElectricIAC]

I did not replace the pano roof. I added some adhesive backed rubber strip that covered the cracked weather strip area. It works, but the piano roof opening and closing causes a bit of issue if done repeatedly. I just don’t open the pano roof anymore.

As far as this being a rare experience- ask around with early adopters of Tesla like me. Most will tell you similar stories. I’d hazard a guess that nearly 90% had 1-2 issues minimum.

Yes, these were early days. All startups go through some pain before mastering the craft of building a reliable product. Thanks in major part to Tesla treating early adopters very well at the service center, most of us did not complain.

That situation was never going to last long, we knew that. But, to do a complete 180 like they have done now, it’s also not sustainable in the long run.

Moreover, the product is still not reliable. My 3 has had numerous windshield chips that show up only at a certain sunlight angle from day one. I showed these to Tesla 7 days after delivery and they were very argumentative that they might have been caused by me. I asked them to see for themselves that there were no surface chips, these were embedded inside the glass. No dice. There have been other issues, like for check straps that keep getting replaced because they make this annoying cracking sound when the doors are opened or closed. Replaced twice after arguing many times that they come under warranty. Driver side B pillar molding that came off (and replaced by Tesla) because it detached from the inner housing. Right now I have a ‘front safety restraint system fault, please take it to service’ warning for which I have the appointment on the 20th. Though the 3 has far fewer issues, we are comparing it to a car that essentially was in the shop every quarter of the year for the first 2-3 years.

Within Spec™

 

[Unclepaul]

All cars have service issues. Seems like the more expensive the car, the more complicated and more prone to issues.

The best seem to be the Japanese. Toyota a little ahead of Honda.
Coming up strong are the Hyundai/Kia twins.

The Germans are far behind. Very few want to keep those cars after the warranty has expired. Repair costs are super high and they require constant service to maintain their high levels of performance.

Believe that Tesla is somewhere between those. Far fewer moving parts and less maintenance requirements over the years.

Of course those with issues will become very loud and voice their indignation when ever anything goes wrong with their individual cars. They have a high level of expectations and feel entitled to their cars never having issues at all.

People have been complaining about Sun Roof leaks, malfunctions and wind noise since they were first invented. Complaining about those are a classic first world problem. Believe that is why Tesla has stopped installing them.

This is easier for me to say, because it has not been my experience. My refreshed X is rock solid. Much quieter than my previous 2017 and 2019. At speed you can carry on an easy conversation and wind noise is hushed. Maybe due to dual pane windows or the electronic noise reduction, but overall it is a quiet and pleasant ride. Just came back from a road trip to San Francisco. Cruising at 80 mph + was a luxury. Side note is that it handles much more securely and charges much quicker.

 

[ElectricIAC]

All cars have service issues. Seems like the more expensive the car, the more complicated and more prone to issues.

The best seem to be the Japanese. Toyota a little ahead of Honda.
Coming up strong are the Hyundai/Kia twins.

The Germans are far behind. Very few want to keep those cars after the warranty has expired. Repair costs are super high and they require constant service to maintain their high levels of performance.

Believe that Tesla is somewhere between those. Far fewer moving parts and less maintenance requirements over the years.

Of course those with issues will become very loud and voice their indignation when ever anything goes wrong with their individual cars. They have a high level of expectations and feel entitled to their cars never having issues at all.

People have been complaining about Sun Roof leaks, malfunctions and wind noise since they were first invented. Complaining about those are a classic first world problem. Believe that is why Tesla has stopped installing them.

This is easier for me to say, because it has not been my experience. My refreshed X is rock solid. Much quieter than my previous 2017 and 2019. At speed you can carry on an easy conversation and wind noise is hushed. Maybe due to dual pane windows or the electronic noise reduction, but overall it is a quiet and pleasant ride. Just came back from a road trip to San Francisco. Cruising at 80 mph + was a luxury. Side note is that it handles much more securely and charges much quicker.

Give it a couple years it’ll become a rattle trap just like all the ones built before it.

Don’t get me wrong I love our MX but being back in a BMW X5 45e with all the goodies for car #2 really paints a contrast!

 

[notrhj]

I did not replace the pano roof. I added some adhesive backed rubber strip that covered the cracked weather strip area. It works, but the piano roof opening and closing causes a bit of issue if done repeatedly. I just don’t open the pano roof anymore.

As far as this being a rare experience- ask around with early adopters of Tesla like me. Most will tell you similar stories. I’d hazard a guess that nearly 90% had 1-2 issues minimum.

Yes, these were early days. All startups go through some pain before mastering the craft of building a reliable product. Thanks in major part to Tesla treating early adopters very well at the service center, most of us did not complain.

That situation was never going to last long, we knew that. But, to do a complete 180 like they have done now, it’s also not sustainable in the long run.

Moreover, the product is still not reliable. My 3 has had numerous windshield chips that show up only at a certain sunlight angle from day one. I showed these to Tesla 7 days after delivery and they were very argumentative that they might have been caused by me. I asked them to see for themselves that there were no surface chips, these were embedded inside the glass. No dice. There have been other issues, like for check straps that keep getting replaced because they make this annoying cracking sound when the doors are opened or closed. Replaced twice after arguing many times that they come under warranty. Driver side B pillar molding that came off (and replaced by Tesla) because it detached from the inner housing. Right now I have a ‘front safety restraint system fault, please take it to service’ warning for which I have the appointment on the 20th. Though the 3 has far fewer issues, we are comparing it to a car that essentially was in the shop every quarter of the year for the first 2-3 years.

I understand what you are saying. Just because I have a 2019 M3p and haven’t had any of your issues doesn’t negate them.

But the Data shows not everyone is miserable either.

Right now Tesla is selling Everything they can produce, and everything coming off their line statistically isn’t 100%.
And the joke is “it’s within spec”.

Cars that get rejected at delivery are sold within days, mostly uncorrected, to a large willing audience.
And the demand is getting larger. So the Tesla tuff love position, that will lose them some customers, isn’t felt.

The issue where one Service center says ok, while another gives you a snotty hell-no, shows there is a major people problem also.

It’s a love hate relationship with the car, where how can something you enjoy be so annoying or argued unreliable.
These forums and personal PSA’s are not going to persuade anyone to love or hate their car or the company because someone else does.

If excusing Tesla makes you a fanboy, what does complaining but continually buying a dysfunctional product make a person?

If my sample(s) were as bad as yours, I would leave the brand, and “maybe” revisit some time in the future when they are doing better.

And if they don’t do better, Tesla will join the list

AMC
Checker
Continental
Delorean
Hummer
Mercury
Oldsmobile
Plymouth
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn
Scion

problem solved

 

[ForDesign]

All of which they need to account for, and design for.

The low volume might not have anything to do with it. Tesla made their own parts after all?

There are the laws of physics.

For reference the Mercedes S class has projected 5 year running costs of nearly $30K.

A C class: $21K.

Driving a MS for less than the cost of a C class over 5 years with a more comfortable experience is the formula.

Air suspension, extra sound deadening, big wheels, power seats, big glass roofs etc all add weight. (Increased wear and tear on the components supporting that weight.)

You can resort to a full Carbon fiber skateboard/suspension components etc to keep weight down.

And cost goes up. As does crash repair etc insurance.

Or you can buy a Nissan Leaf and pay $6K for 5 years of energy and maintenance. With choice comes consequences/compromises,; $100K isn’t enough to expect a no compromise vehicle unfortunately.

 

[_Redshift_]

I understand what you are saying. Just because I have a 2019 M3p and haven’t had any of your issues doesn’t negate them.

But the Data shows not everyone is miserable either.

Right now Tesla is selling Everything they can produce, and everything coming off their line statistically isn’t 100%.
And the joke is “it’s within spec”.

Cars that get rejected at delivery are sold within days, mostly uncorrected, to a large willing audience.
And the demand is getting larger. So the Tesla tuff love position, that will lose them some customers, isn’t felt.

The issue where one Service center says ok, while another gives you a snotty hell-no, shows there is a major people problem also.

It’s a love hate relationship with the car, where how can something you enjoy be so annoying or argued unreliable.
These forums and personal PSA’s are not going to persuade anyone to love or hate their car or the company because someone else does.

If excusing Tesla makes you a fanboy, what does complaining but continually buying a dysfunctional product make a person?

If my sample(s) were as bad as yours, I would leave the brand, and “maybe” revisit some time in the future when they are doing better.

And if they don’t do better, Tesla will join the list

AMC
Checker
Continental
Delorean
Hummer
Mercury
Oldsmobile
Plymouth
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn
Scion

problem solved

I want Tesla to thrive. Elon is the guy with all his faults made this electric revolution happen.

Without his Herculean efforts there wouldn’t be as many EVs as there are today.

However as a consumer I’ll look for what’s the best car for me (only electric ).

Right now the competition is not too good. The charging network is a major part, quite unreliable.

Give this 2 more years and credible competition will be there. Hopefully Tesla has a mature leader by then too. Better for all of us.

 

[_Redshift_]

There are the laws of physics.

For reference the Mercedes S class has projected 5 year running costs of nearly $30K.

A C class: $21K.

Driving a MS for less than the cost of a C class over 5 years with a more comfortable experience is the formula.

Air suspension, extra sound deadening, big wheels, power seats, big glass roofs etc all add weight. (Increased wear and tear on the components supporting that weight.)

You can resort to a full Carbon fiber skateboard/suspension components etc to keep weight down.

And cost goes up. As does crash repair etc insurance.

Or you can buy a Nissan Leaf and pay $6K for 5 years of energy and maintenance. With choice comes consequences/compromises,; $100K isn’t enough to expect a no compromise vehicle unfortunately.

Actually I saw a YT video on the BMW iX by Sandy Munro recently and he is talking about the cost of carbon fiber being down a lot, and quite competitive with the cost of aluminum or steel.

He mentioned it’s cheaper, even.

 

[ForDesign]

Actually I saw a YT video on the BMW iX by Sandy Munro recently and he is talking about the cost of carbon fiber bring down a lot, and quite competitive with the cost of aluminum or steel.

He mentioned it’s cheaper, even.

Carbon is cheaper when implemented into a new car program. It’s a lot more difficult to introduce the material in large percentages in program refreshes-such as the Model S/X, which where designed over a decade ago.

It’s not currently cheaper then steel from a 30K POV (replacement parts, high volume products, infrastructure).

 

[_Redshift_]

Carbon is cheaper when implemented into a new car program. It’s a lot more difficult to introduce the material in large percentages in program refreshes-such as the Model S/X, which where designed over a decade ago.

It’s not currently cheaper then steel from a 30K POV (replacement parts, high volume products, infrastructure).

That’s the thing about Tesla. Whereas other car makers have refresh cycles of 4 years and an entirely brand new platform maybe 10 years, Tesla keeps its refreshes subtle, and no new platform after 10 years.

This is where the competition can come and exploit the weakness in Tesla’s strategy.

Carbon fiber + tear drop tail + more aluminum for suspension and motor parts + lighter battery technology = *hopefully* 400 mile real world range (full load, 75 mph, in cold weather)

 

[ForDesign]

That’s the thing about Tesla. Whereas other car makers have refresh cycles of 4 years and an entirely brand new platform maybe 10 years, Tesla keeps its refreshes subtle, and no new platform after 10 years.

This is where the competition can come and exploit the weakness in Tesla’s strategy.

Carbon fiber + tear drop tail + more aluminum for suspension and motor parts + lighter battery technology = *hopefully* 400 mile real world range (full load, 75 mph, in cold weather)

Well there are paths:

Full line automakers (GM, etc)

Limited run automakers but still mainstream (Porsche etc)

Exotic, limited line automakers (Ferrari etc)

Tesla is has stated that it’s in the first group more so than the last two.

Interestingly, only automakers in the last group use carbon fiber extensively in its programs.

CAN there be a OEM from the first tier that uses lightweight components like CF? Sure. But that hasn’t been the case in any of the 1/2nd generation massed produced EVs coming to market.

Those companies will have their hands full matching the effectiveness of Tesla and sourcing batteries, along with switching over from way more profitable ICE vehicles (design/engineering/sourcing/manufacturing) but if you think this is a environment ripe for legacy OEMs to innovate….then that would be surprising to me professionally.

 

[_Redshift_]

Well there are paths:

Full line automakers (GM, etc)

Limited run automakers but still mainstream (Porsche etc)

Exotic, limited line automakers (Ferrari etc)

Tesla is has stated that it’s in the first group more so than the last two.

Interestingly, only automakers in the last group use carbon fiber extensively in its programs.

CAN there be a OEM from the first tier that uses lightweight components like CF? Sure. But that hasn’t been the case in any of the 1/2nd generation massed produced EVs coming to market.

Those companies will have their hands full matching the effectiveness of Tesla and sourcing batteries, along with switching over from way more profitable ICE vehicles (design/engineering/sourcing/manufacturing) but if you think this is a environment ripe for legacy OEMs to innovate….then that would be surprising to me professionally.

I agree. This is the sad state of affairs. Legacy car makers are way too complacent to change and adapt quickly.

Recently I test drove the BMW i4 40. My remarks to the salesman were : please start with a dedicated EV platform. The exterior dimensions as well as the curb weight are big, but interior space is smaller than my Model 3.

While the i4 rode better and is better built, with better materials, etc, etc the packaging is quite inefficient.

 

[ForDesign]

I agree. This is the sad state of affairs. Legacy car makers are way too complacent to change and adapt quickly.

Recently I test drove the BMW i4 40. My remarks to the salesman were : please start with a dedicated EV platform. The exterior dimensions as well as the curb weight are big, but interior space is smaller than my Model 3.

While the i4 rode better and is better built, with better materials, etc, etc the packaging is quite inefficient.

It’s all perspective, isn’t it?

On (some) consumer side:

Wants: bigger, cheaper, faster, better
built, safety equipment, lighter best looking, innovative.

Needs: transportation. Or one can walk, take public transport etc.

Under the ‘wants’ column, anyone removed from the ‘pure consumer’
(i.e. ignorant/ego driven) mindset can see that a lot of those metrics are at direct odds with each other.

Exotic materials like a Ferrari?
Ride quality like a Rolls Royce?
Dynamics like a Porsche?
Lightweight like a Lotus?
Cheap to replace parts like a F-Series?
Bentley matching tolerances?
Electronics UX/UI like a Tesla?
Service treatment like a Bentley?
Energy infrastructure like a Tesla?

All for the cost of a well appointed 3 series = what ‘ignorant’ consumer might expect.

Those expectations are impossible to match. There are going to be compromises within products, even those in the $300K category. Such is the cost of delivering more of the above in a singular product in the automotive sector.

 

[Richbot]

A base 2022 $25k 1.5t Accord is faster, has higher handling limits, is much larger, more fuel efficient, much cleaner emitting (years ago Honda decided to PZEV ALL THE THINGS!) worlds safer, and much more tech-laden than the top-spec Accord V6 that cost the same amount of money in 2003. The current accord is a very fine American-made automobile. Consumers expect cars to be good at balancing all of those things because cars have been getting way, way better for the same money for like 3 decades straight.

I think we're seeing the same thing with EV's, the improvements just aren't falling in the build quality/consistency column yet at Tesla, and Tesla's uh...dynamic pricing has obscured some of the improvements. But look at what $105k bought you at Tesla in 2013 and what it buys you now and the same phenomenon is definitely occurring.

 

[JRP3]

It does seem that most people are happy with their Tesla

Tesla brand loyalty (the propensity of return-to-market Tesla households to acquire another Tesla) has climbed to 67.5% in the first half of 2022, more than 12 percentage points higher than its brand loyalty in any preceding year (its next highest result was 55.2% in 2020). Driving these results is the Model 3, with a first half 2022 brand loyalty rate of 70.7% - higher than any other model on the U.S.

Tesla loyalty and market share soar, but dominance of EV segment could wane

Tesla Motors has not just thrived in the first six months of 2022; it has reached new levels of success based on two metrics -- record-high brand loyalty rates and significant brand loyalty among Model 3 owners.

ihsmarkit.com

 

[Electric700]

My Model X started making some weird noises coming from the front suspension. Brought it in for service. Changed
- aft link assembly (both sides)
- fore link assembly (both sides)
- tie rod ball (both sides)
- driven Hub (both sides)
total costs over $5,000

After picking it up I noticed there were still noises so I brought it back again. Now the air spring needed replacement. Additional cost $3,500

I was very taken aback. Where are all these people telling me they drive 500.000 miles with only changing the washer fluid? I talked to the lady at the reception and she said that this is normal for higher mileage Model X. They are now coming in in droves with similar issues. She has worked at other high-end dealerships (Lexus. Mercedes) but she never seen anything like this with Model X. The other day there was a client who needed both front and rear suspension repair. Total cost $16,000!

The lady told me that Tesla - being a newer company- doesn’t have the experience in designing good suspensions and now we are paying the price for that. I even have to sell stock to pay for this!

We also talked about FSD. She told me to not hold our breath for having this anytime soon. My believe in Tesla is shaken to its core..

Sorry to see you had those issues! We should be pushing for lower repair costs from Tesla along with more reliable vehicles overall. This will help improve customer satisfaction and in turn, will help them improve sales. I'd like to see the extended service agreement offered for all vehicles too. May be they can even offer a full 10 year/170,000 mile warranty. Hyundai offers a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on their EV main batteries and the powertrain.

As far as the suspension repair that the other person had, may be that was damage caused by improper maintenance or tire pressures. It's difficult to say since I don't think they know about this thread. I'd be interested to know though if you find out.

 

[strider]

Your S certainly sounds trouble prone, bordering on a lemon.
‘But that’s not everyone’s experience, is it ?

But that's exactly the point. Tesla is like the US makers in the 70s and 80s. If you got a good one, they were great cars. But if you got a bad one you would be chasing problems for years. Tesla's problem is that they have zero QA. Whatever rolls off the line gets shipped and the SCs have to deal with it. Most of the time the SC can fix it and the owners carry on happy. But it means that every car has to go to the SC after delivery in order to fix things that should have been fixed before it left the factory.

It does seem that most people are happy with their Tesla

Tesla loyalty and market share soar, but dominance of EV segment could wane

Tesla Motors has not just thrived in the first six months of 2022; it has reached new levels of success based on two metrics -- record-high brand loyalty rates and significant brand loyalty among Model 3 owners.

ihsmarkit.com

Loyalty is not a good measure as there are currently few if any alternatives to Tesla's products. People that want to drive a high performance and/or long range EV have not choice but Tesla. So even if they hate the brand they will buy again. However the lack of competition is changing and will be a reality in the next couple years. Then we will see how loyal people truly are.

 

[SO16]

But that's exactly the point. Tesla is like the US makers in the 70s and 80s. If you got a good one, they were great cars. But if you got a bad one you would be chasing problems for years. Tesla's problem is that they have zero QA. Whatever rolls off the line gets shipped and the SCs have to deal with it. Most of the time the SC can fix it and the owners carry on happy. But it means that every car has to go to the SC after delivery in order to fix things that should have been fixed before it left the factory.

Loyalty is not a good measure as there are currently few if any alternatives to Tesla's products. People that want to drive a high performance and/or long range EV have not choice but Tesla. So even if they hate the brand they will buy again. However the lack of competition is changing and will be a reality in the next couple years. Then we will see how loyal people truly are.

In 2030 I will still see comments like “in the next couple years…”

In the next couple years, Tesla will have major pricing power compared to the competition. So even with more EVs coming from competition, it will change from comparable features to comparable pricing.

 

[White Shadow]

Looks as if you missed my point entirely as well since I never suggested a BEV would be maintenance free.

And I never suggested that you did. So now what? LOL