Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Beware SMETS2 meters

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Hi Wayne, I thought that too. However, the manager who has been investigating the problem has found that there was a change in the UK legislation that permits installation of smart meters which enables reactive power to be metered. The UK regulator is Ofgem. I have searched their site. There is a mass of stuff there, most of it very general. So far I've not been able to tracking down the relevant document. If anyone else can find it, please send the link!
Home

There's lots of stuff about codes of practice for installation, consumer rights etc, but what are power companies actually allowed to meter? where is the basic legislation?
This might be what you are looking for. I've read it, understand about 70% of it.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/fil...of_system_charges_statement_-_1_july_2016.pdf

Here is OFGEM's page about settlement reform for half hourly metering, which is a smart meter so I understand. Electricity Settlement Reform
 
Last edited:
Yes, the way I like to think about apparent, real, and reactive power is this:
Consider a wheelbarrow - you must lift up in order to move the goods forward. The lifting up doesn't actually move the goods, but you need it in order to move them (can't just drag on the ground).
Reactive power (VAR) is the lifting up, real power is you pushing forward moving the goods (watts), and apparent power is your entire effort (VA).

I am reading this thread purely for informational purposes (in the US, not impacted in the slightest, but like to learn new things). I was having some trouble understanding what "reactive power" was, actually. I love analogies though, and this one is really good. I have a clear picture of what it is now, thanks for taking the time to share that one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JeremyWhaling
Hi John

I now have fairly concrete information form my EDF manager on the case that it looks like my Landis+Gyr smart meter has been incorrectly programmed. I'm expecting a call tomorrow/Friday to confirm what they are going to do about it. I've now been told that although the Smart Meter legislation makes provision to charge domestic customers for reactive energy (kVAR hours), EDF do not do that at present. If they did I'm sure that the meter should display that separately, which it is capable of, but not programmed for.

I think there may be a real elephant in the room here. It';s likely that hundreds of thousands of smart meters are incorrectly programmed. That would explain why there have been a lot of complaints about increased bills with smarty meters. In increase of say 0.2kWh due to reactive power metering would not be obvious, lost in the general baseline house demand. it's only because with a home battery there should be nearly zero demand when it's powering the house that it has become obvious.

I'll email you my report. It's probably water under the bridge now for me since it has had the desired effect with EDF, but it might help you, particularly with another video.

Mike
 
Hi John

I now have fairly concrete information form my EDF manager on the case that it looks like my Landis+Gyr smart meter has been incorrectly programmed. I'm expecting a call tomorrow/Friday to confirm what they are going to do about it. I've now been told that although the Smart Meter legislation makes provision to charge domestic customers for reactive energy (kVAR hours), EDF do not do that at present. If they did I'm sure that the meter should display that separately, which it is capable of, but not programmed for.

I think there may be a real elephant in the room here. It';s likely that hundreds of thousands of smart meters are incorrectly programmed. That would explain why there have been a lot of complaints about increased bills with smarty meters. In increase of say 0.2kWh due to reactive power metering would not be obvious, lost in the general baseline house demand. it's only because with a home battery there should be nearly zero demand when it's powering the house that it has become obvious.

I'll email you my report. It's probably water under the bridge now for me since it has had the desired effect with EDF, but it might help you, particularly with another video.

Mike


That is a GIANT sized elephant, with likely a BUNCH of money "incorrectly" billed.....
 
Yes, the way I like to think about apparent, real, and reactive power is this:
Consider a wheelbarrow - you must lift up in order to move the goods forward. The lifting up doesn't actually move the goods, but you need it in order to move them (can't just drag on the ground).
Reactive power (VAR) is the lifting up, real power is you pushing forward moving the goods (watts), and apparent power is your entire effort (VA).
Brilliant analogy Jeremy! Thanks for sharing it.
Regarding what kVA is, I've been told by a knowledgeable power distribution friend that KVA can actually be either apparent or real; power, but KW is a special case where current and voltage are in phase. Since we are talking about an element of reactive power (out of phase element) I guess we can't therefore use the term kVA to describe real power though. Would you agree?
 
Brilliant analogy Jeremy! Thanks for sharing it.
Regarding what kVA is, I've been told by a knowledgeable power distribution friend that KVA can actually be either apparent or real; power, but KW is a special case where current and voltage are in phase. Since we are talking about an element of reactive power (out of phase element) I guess we can't therefore use the term kVA to describe real power though. Would you agree?

I've only heard of kVA describing apparent power. It may be true that for some loads (notably EV charging and resistive heating) the apparent power is the same as real power (no reactive component), but that is not generally true for all loads of course.

kVA is the apparent power regardless of what the real power is. Real power should be described in kW. The terms shouldn't be interchanged to avoid confusion, even if the load is purely resistive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnTisbury
This is a very interesting thread.

I have a smets1 and octopus data shows on days where I am completely self sufficient from the powerwall I'm consuming 0.4-0.5KWh per day according to the meter.

However I've recently had a zappi installed and noticed this is showing constant grid load, even when house is running off powerwall, of anywhere between 100w and 200w with occasional spikes.

I'm wondering if somehow the zappi is also seeing this reactive power as real power.
 
I have a smets1 and octopus data shows on days where I am completely self sufficient from the powerwall I'm consuming 0.4-0.5KWh per day according to the meter.
That's a very similar situation to me (SMETS meter 5? years old) - see my earlier posts in this thread and my PVOutput log SN36AJ 4.050kW . However, my graph shows the instantaneous grid import is lower than the 100W you mention but the daily import (around 0.5kWh in the summer) is in the same range. The daily import is higher during the winter when the hours of export from solar are less. I don't think we've got completely to the bottom of why there is a trickle of power from the grid when running on battery but maybe the gateway needs this trickle to keep the battery synchronised with the grid. The cost of this trickle is somewhat less than the daily standing charge for the grid connection so I can live with it.
 
See John Tisbury's excellent new video on the problem
Thanks for sharing the excellent video.

Not having a SMETS 2 I’m not suffering financially but I suspect that in the background I am seeing reactive power movements.

I have a Secure SMETS1, Octopus Go, two Powerwall 2’s, gateway 2, two Zappi’s V1’s and an Eddi.

My spring/summer grid draw Is a very respectable 150wh per day on average. That’s what I’m charged for.

The Tesla app slightly overestimates the daily draw but the Myenergi app reports grid draw up to ten times higher (1-2Kwh).

I have been trying to nail down the reason for the discrepancy on the Myenergi forum without success. I’m told that their CT clamps don’t ‘see’ reactive power. Their devices show grid drawing circa 150wh when the smart meter display shows a small export or zero.

I am relatively certain that, had I a SMETS2, I would be in the same boat.

anyone with a SMETS2 seeing the Myenergi app agreeing grid draw?
 
Dilly, it depends what CT clamps we are talking about. My early suspicions were raised because I have one very basic CT clamp monitor, one supplied 8 years ago when British Gas was my energy supplier. That consistently reads 300-500 watts when the powerwall is supplying all the power. Huhh?? At first I thought it was just wrong. Even the SMETS2 meter was only reading 60-100 watts at the same time. But when we put a very sophisticated and costly calibrated Fluke 345 PQ CT meter on the system it produced similar readings. Vrms x Arms gave about 400 watts. But what is also showed was a power factor of 0.25 that the BG meter didn't take into account. Multiply Vrms x Arms xPF and we got the ~100watts that the Smart Meter was showing. That's technically the correct formula for Real Power, which is what we should be metered for. By the way, I'm the 'Mike' that John refers to in the video. I'm not an electrical engineer but I'm fortunate to have access to some clever people.

What seems to be happening is that at very low power demands from the Powerwall, the current waveform pattern is really horrible - lots of harmonics - it bears no resemblance to the smooth 50hz voltage sine waveform.
IMG_2219.jpeg


Compare that to the waveform with a heavy resistive load - it shows an average of about 15 amps giving the 3.4kW shown on the Smart Meter remote display next to the Fluke meter. Nerly perfect current sine wave in sync with the voltage waveform, so, by definition, a power factor of about 1.0.
IMG_2220.jpeg


In his video, John mentions that the Octopus contract states that they 'can' charge for reactive power. I have been told verbally by my EDF contact that the also 'can' charge for it but they don't do so at the moment. I'm sure that Octopus will be the same. My current conclusion is that the power companies are not 'pulling a fast one'. The Smart Meters are correctly metering 'real power'. But they appear to be doing so in a different way from non-smart meters. My digital Landis+Gyr non-smart check meter does not record the constant small power demand that the smart meter does. In fact, over more than a week, it did recorded Zero energy consumption (less than it's 1kWh resolution) while the smart meter recorded 10kWh. I do not believe that this is down to the non-smart meters being much less accurate. The specification for my check meter is that it's accuracy is better than 80 milliamps - that's equivalent to 19 watts - much better than the 60-100 watts the smart meter is recording. My guess is that the non-smart meter is calculating or measuring 'real power' a different way. Some day we probably will be metered for reactive power because more and more domestic devices are consuming it. My old fridge has a power factor of 0.6. My new deep freezer is 0.83, so they are getting better.

It looks like it's the Powerwall inverter or SMPS running at very low power that is the problem. It appears to take and put back small amounts of power all the time to keep in sync with the grid frequency. Unfortunately we only get metered for the consumption, not the export, as John says in his video. It also seems to be down to a very poor power factor at low consumption levels. Whether this is just bad design or a real problem with the present state of the art of inverters and SMPS's, only a specialist can tell us.

John also mentions that reactive power has to be produced and therefore paid for, somehow. That is only part of the problem. From my Powerline friend's point of view, the problem is that it heats up the supply cables. They have had to install 'reverse' ground source heat pumps to dissipate the heat developed by some cables! Maybe we could tap in to that and heat our houses instead! But reactive power is something we (society) need to minimise.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: bemyax
Wow, that current waveform is bizarre! That doesn't look like a normal switching mode power supply load. It actually might have a DC component, as just looking at the full cycle here there are more positive stuff under the curve than the negative. So many harmonics and an overall non-sinusoidal load are going to wreck havoc in terms of accuracy with CTs, and power meters in general, as they are not typically designed to be high bandwidth (the power is mostly fundamental and first few harmonics).
 
Dilly, it depends what CT clamps we are talking about. My early suspicions were raised because I have one very basic CT clamp monitor, one supplied 8 years ago when British Gas was my energy supplier. That consistently reads 300-500 watts when the powerwall is supplying all the power. Huhh?? At first I thought it was just wrong. Even the SMETS2 meter was only reading 60-100 watts at the same time. But when we put a very sophisticated and costly calibrated Fluke 345 PQ CT meter on the system it produced similar readings. Vrms x Arms gave about 400 watts. But what is also showed was a power factor of 0.25 that the BG meter didn't take into account. Multiply Vrms x Arms xPF and we got the ~100watts that the Smart Meter was showing. That's technically the correct formula for Real Power, which is what we should be metered for. By the way, I'm the 'Mike' that John refers to in the video. I'm not an electrical engineer but I'm fortunate to have access to some clever people.

What seems to be happening is that at very low power demands from the Powerwall, the current waveform pattern is really horrible - lots of harmonics - it bears no resemblance to the smooth 50hz voltage sine waveform.
View attachment 577145

Compare that to the waveform with a heavy resistive load - it shows an average of about 15 amps giving the 3.4kW shown on the Smart Meter remote display next to the Fluke meter. Nerly perfect current sine wave in sync with the voltage waveform, so, by definition, a power factor of about 1.0.
View attachment 577146

In his video, John mentions that the Octopus contract states that they 'can' charge for reactive power. I have been told verbally by my EDF contact that the also 'can' charge for it but they don't do so at the moment. I'm sure that Octopus will be the same. My current conclusion is that the power companies are not 'pulling a fast one'. The Smart Meters are correctly metering 'real power'. But they appear to be doing so in a different way from non-smart meters. My digital Landis+Gyr non-smart check meter does not record the constant small power demand that the smart meter does. In fact, over more than a week, it did recorded Zero energy consumption (less than it's 1kWh resolution) while the smart meter recorded 10kWh. I do not believe that this is down to the non-smart meters being much less accurate. The specification for my check meter is that it's accuracy is better than 80 milliamps - that's equivalent to 19 watts - much better than the 60-100 watts the smart meter is recording. My guess is that the non-smart meter is calculating or measuring 'real power' a different way. Some day we probably will be metered for reactive power because more and more domestic devices are consuming it. My old fridge has a power factor of 0.6. My new deep freezer is 0.83, so they are getting better.

It looks like it's the Powerwall inverter or SMPS running at very low power that is the problem. It appears to take and put back small amounts of power all the time to keep in sync with the grid frequency. Unfortunately we only get metered for the consumption, not the export, as John says in his video. It also seems to be down to a very poor power factor at low consumption levels. Whether this is just bad design or a real problem with the present state of the art of inverters and SMPS's, only a specialist can tell us.

John also mentions that reactive power has to be produced and therefore paid for, somehow. That is only part of the problem. From my Powerline friend's point of view, the problem is that it heats up the supply cables. They have had to install 'reverse' ground source heat pumps to dissipate the heat developed by some cables! Maybe we could tap in to that and heat our houses instead! But reactive power is something we (society) need to minimise.

Mike, thanks for that. I’m not electrically educated, but I do understand the basic principles you describe.

my grid supply has two OEM CT’s; one connected to my Solar Edge inverter that runs the second set of panels and the other is connected to one of my Zappi chargers. Both CT’s on the same cable.
Take Saturday as an example: Octopus stats for the day - 211wh. Solar edge - 200wh. Tesla app 300wh. Myenergi app 2.3Kwh.

there are half hour slots during the day where grid draw Is zero others where it is 3, 4 or 5wh and dinner time where the induction hob plays hell with the grid and PW balance!

Myenergi say it can only be down to calibration but I have tested the accuracy of their CT by moving it to my annex circuit and running appliances of known value which the CT measured quite accurately.

as I said before, financially I’m not affected yet. But I could be in the future...

that one set of is wrong for whatever reason isn’t a major problem, just an annoyance!
 
Hi to everyone. My SMETS 2 meter was installed yesterday and i wanted to post my findings so far.

I have 5.5kWP solar, 6kW Solis Inverter and 1 PW2. This was installed in June this year and (until yesterday) I was connected to the grid via a SMETS 1 meter.

Octopus arranged the meter install (used Providor) and having followed this thread previously and having seen some of John's Youtube videos, I was interested if I was going to suffer a similar issue.

Prior to the new meter install, my old meters' import was in line with my expectations, ie no phantom grid usage.

The meter installer supplied me with a Chameleon IHD3 monitor.

Since yesterday, This meter indicates a CONSTANT export to the grid. it varies from 150 - 300 watts.

It is showing this export, despite the fact that the PW is not fully charged. (A one point today, the PW did become full and the export shot up to circa 4kW)

I've placed my multimeter current clamp onto the live tail into the house and it is also showing an export to grid (1.3Amps at the time)

The new smart meter also seems to agree (showing zero import and 7kW export) since its fitment yesterday.

This seems to be the opposite of what you are experiencing. Part of me is happy that I am not being charged for import but I also realise that I am going to be draining my PW to the grid each day (200watt hours = 4.8kWhrs per day).

I ran the PW setup wizard and have 2 CT clamps (assume 1 on solar and one on grid flow) Everything else seemed OK (but not really sure what I was looking for).

The Tesla app does not record this export to grid - of the 7kW/hr of export recorded by the meter, the app shows that 3.5 has been exported

As a final note. Whilst typing this my PW is now full and the export to the grid on both the app and the smart meter monitor both agree.

Perhaps the sensitivity of the Tesla CT clamp on the incoming supply is poor and the result is the PW supplying a demand (that isn't there) resulting in phantom grid discharge?
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnTisbury
Hi Everyone, just thought I'd chip in with an update I've received from Octopus Energy on the back of my question to them about whether we are charged for Reactive Power.

From Philip at Octopus Energy:
Meters are reading Active power. The issue isn’t related to the reactive power. We’ve done the tests and between us, Tesla and L+G we’re writing an article to publish on our site. Will then be replacing meters and applying credit.
I'm awaiting for the article to appear on their website, but reading between the lines it does appear to be something with some SMETS2 smart meter, but obviously not all SMETS2 smart meters. On the plus side the issue has been recognised formally with a solution put in place.

Thought you all would like to know.
 
I'm awaiting for the article to appear on their website, but reading between the lines it does appear to be something with some SMETS2 smart meter, but obviously not all SMETS2 smart meters. On the plus side the issue has been recognised formally with a solution put in place.
That's good news, particularly since three parties are involved who could all delay a conclusion by pointing fingers at others (but likely replacement of some L+G meters suggests where the underlying problem lies).