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Bi directional charging
- Thread starter gdallas
- Start date
RichardTheKing
Member
Yes indeed
but still a lot of less expensive than a £16/17k one 
I have setup a 5% energy price increase every year, this is my assumption
Leafs had V2H/V2X it for ages over CHAdeMO.
I've pointed to stuff like this for years:
Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?
Is anyone familiar with the Bolt's PLC (power line communication) protocols? Is there a CCS "standard" that defines these protocols consistently for charging stations? It is quite interesting that the more advanced solar systems designers (e.g. Pika Energy) appear to be using PLC protocols to...
www.mynissanleaf.com
Level 3 at home
EV manufacturers are not going to support use of vehicle to grid for home grids. There's no way to control cycling and it would make warranties difficult to manage. How do you tell whether battery degradation was caused by driving or battery cycling in support of your house? how do you...
www.mynissanleaf.com
CHAdeMO bi-directional
Appears that manufacturers of V2G equipment state that bi-directional DC current (via CHAdeMO) can only be obtained in 2014 Leafs and after. Does anyone know what change occurred (if this is actually true)? Will be a disappointment to me as an owner of a 2012 Leaf!
mynissanleaf.com
http://www.evs28.org/event_file/event_file/1/pfile/EVS28_0224_EconomicPotential-V2H-Japan.pdf is dead but there's a copy at https://web.archive.org/web/2018091...le/EVS28_0224_EconomicPotential-V2H-Japan.pdf.
Well you've got to give people some reason to buy a LeafLeafs had V2H/V2X it for ages over CHAdeMO.
I've pointed to stuff like this for years:
Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?
Is anyone familiar with the Bolt's PLC (power line communication) protocols? Is there a CCS "standard" that defines these protocols consistently for charging stations? It is quite interesting that the more advanced solar systems designers (e.g. Pika Energy) appear to be using PLC protocols to...Level 3 at home
EV manufacturers are not going to support use of vehicle to grid for home grids. There's no way to control cycling and it would make warranties difficult to manage. How do you tell whether battery degradation was caused by driving or battery cycling in support of your house? how do you...CHAdeMO bi-directional
Appears that manufacturers of V2G equipment state that bi-directional DC current (via CHAdeMO) can only be obtained in 2014 Leafs and after. Does anyone know what change occurred (if this is actually true)? Will be a disappointment to me as an owner of a 2012 Leaf!
http://www.evs28.org/event_file/event_file/1/pfile/EVS28_0224_EconomicPotential-V2H-Japan.pdf is dead but there's a copy at https://web.archive.org/web/2018091...le/EVS28_0224_EconomicPotential-V2H-Japan.pdf.
RichardTheKing
Member
This is my spreadsheet If that can Help, I am only living in UK 6 month/year which I have simulated on my model,
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RichardTheKing
Member
I am going to clean it by next week and put it on Google, I will put a link on the forum. This could be useful perhaps. It is not perfect but I would like to believe that it give me some good assumption in what I would like to buy and by how many year I can get my money back
It’s going to need a change in warranty t&cs as the mileage cannot be the limiting factor, it would need to be based on charge cycles.
Ackman999
Member
MrBadger
Badger out
I appreciate that you have an energy use close to that of the HMS Queen Elizabeth
, but not everyone else does.I always suggest that energy needs (time, power and energy) are monitored and systems sized accordingly. Its easy to cherry pick numbers, but this just so happened to be our yesterdays electricity use. Everyone at home etc...
Its very easy to see why I went for a 7,2kWh, 3kW solution - very brief >3kW use that inverter would not have supplied 100% and ~8kWh peak use that batteries + solar almost certainly would have covered 100%. Cost £3k on top of our previous 4kWp solar install that has given quite a few years of decent FiT. And at <£800 per 2.x kWh of battery, its easy to size and extra capacity is pretty much plug and play. Outside the off peak 12:30-04:30 peak window, the battery would have been charged at 5p (not for long) or even free.
Different story last week though, but the last few days we have just started coming out of the shadows so daytime PV is starting to ramp up, with peak power coming in about a month and a bit.
We have no need to charge our car outside of off peak hours, or on days when it can be trickle charged for close to free, so no need for a big inverter for us. £100 extra would have given us a 5kW inverter, a little more would give a hybrid inverter (2 x sources, so battery + PV, or wind, or hydro... that's when it starts to get interesting IMHO, even if low power). Small inverter theoretically keeps DNO approval simpler too which would still be a requirement for V2G or V2H, so more than just a firmware update to the car and maybe a different wall connector. That may add ~£1500 to save £3k. Not sure I would want my car batteries used for that insignificant saving, especially if it was used for V2G and minimal benefit to me. I wouldn't mind that on a relatively inexpensive dedicated battery, but not one in my car.
However, even an average 25p differential on off peak/peak rates (original estimates done on a 9p differential), each £800 is going to take 3200kWh (3.2MWh) of store/discharge energy cycles to pay for itself. We have 3 of them, plus inverter and install, so probably equal to around 13MWh of time shifted electricity use. Outside of offpeak, our charged energy use is around 1/5 of that. So potentially 5 year payback, with a following wind which isn't going to happen as there will be times when the batteries will be full and not even needed (house self powered 100% from PV), so probably significantly longer. Alas, still awaiting to commission our battery. It needs DNO approval and test results which limits choice of electrician. So graph below is sans battery.
We are not 100% electric here, but at ~3p/kWh (plus losses), even a highly efficient heat pump will not even touch the sides cost wise. We do have 100% electricity elsewhere though, which may use 35-40kWh on a cold and windy day (10-15kWh when warmer), but I recon for £400-500 I could significantly reduce that, if only there was not a global supply shortage.
Unfortunately my snipping tool has just started to wash out snips.
This is some serious analysis. You mind sharing this, saves me from having to produce the same when doing the maths for my system which I plan to install this year. Ta
PITA
Model 3 Performance
Yes, you can discharge 100% of the Powerwalls for your own use.
It's a system that works very well for us, very well.
My comment was not to rubbish your system, but to clarify your statement as not correct.
I'm not interested in ROI, it was a hobby to set up during lockdown...
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Hello Pita,
This is what is backup my comment, what are yours?
I am going to Solar Panel, and I have done my homework and unfortunately, I cannot consider anymore the Tesla battery because they are too expensive, and I cannot see how I will recover the money in time. Then I have found a good compromise with In2gr8ted company (www.in2gr8tedsolutions.co.uk) with some Good Material. I did have the choice of PV/Inverter/Battery I could use, and the Guy (Paul G) was very useful to give me all the informations I need and answering all my questions. We have exchange more than 10 emails and spend 2 to 3 hours (4 phone call) then I can get anything I need to understand what I need. I have decided to go for:
There is an interesting YouTube video about the GivEnergy system:
- 12 Solar Panels: Tiger Mono-Facial N-Type All black 400-watt form JINKO Solar (400Wh - Power output warranty Year 30 year at 87.4% - Maximum power efficiency at 20.96% - Lowest Temperature Coefficient (PMAX) at -0.34%/⁰C) - 25 years product warranty
- 1 Hybrid Inverter 5Kw: GivEnergy GIV-HY5.0 – 10 years product warranty – IP65 – Compatible with Octopus - Flexible rate tariff compatible - Dual MPPT - WIFI or/and 3G connectivity - (https://givenergy.co.uk/pdf/Version-2021/hybridinverter.pdf)
- 1 Battery 8.6Kwh: GiveEnergy Hybrid - 10 years unlimited cycle guarantee - 100% depth of discharge (https://givenergy.co.uk/pdf/Version-2021/Bat8.2.pdf)
it is not new, but it is quite self-explanatory, and the guy is pretty cool(from Yorkshire)
The overall bill will be £9960, and I will ROI (return on investment in year 9). I am only living in the country for 6 months, but I was living 100% in UK my model will give years 6 instead of year 9
I have compare the price between ShellEnergy, OctopusGo and EDFGoELectric and The overall cost is pretty much similar between EDF and Octopus Go (the night cost is lower, but the Daily rate and the day cost are higher)
The difference as far I know is OctopusGo give me a fixe price for 1 year and for EDF no fixed price is mentioned on the quote. So not sure what will the tariff in few month time.
I think I am going to GO with OctopusGo
Be aware that the throughput on the GivEnergy is limited to 2.6kWh. So even if your battery is full it will only discharge at that level.
Also, most of this systems will not power the house during a blackout. There an emergancy power outlet in the GE system, but it is not installed by default as you have to isolate any powered circuits from the grid as well as providing a seperate dedicated earthing point.. You could ask the installer to wire up the EPS to a couple of dedicated sockets so you could plug the freezer into it or boil a kettle but without major work that's about all it can do.
RichardTheKing
Member
Thanks for the info, I was aware about the 2.6kWh but if need 5.2kWh, I will need another battery and another inverter which is not in my budget (+£4.5k). But honestly I will be Ok with 2.6 kWh max (this is the best I can have with my budget £10k max). I have had that discussion with Paul from in2gr8ted solution. On the other hand I am pretty sure that it told me that the system will support during a blackout. I am going to ask him. Thanks for the advice.
For my own interest, what is the max energy throughput for one powerwall system?
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RichardTheKing
Member
I have Just got an answer from Paul and he has confirm "The battery can be fitted with a grid failure back up kit which will allow a very small part of the house to run from the battery but would be limited to a lighting circuit or possibly a ring which powers your wi-fi etc. It is quite limited and won’t run the whole house. I haven’t included this in the quote but to add would be approximately £540" I believe that is a backup power of up to 2.5kW.(which is peanuts when you've got a battery of 8.2kWh in the house). I have asked him if he can provide another solution in my budget. I am sad about that news, but thanks for your advice.
but today, on the other hand , I have been contacted by Tesla and they are going to send me the invoice today for my MY collection this Saturday
RichardTheKing
Member
Best Practices During Power Outages | Tesla Support
Powerwall brings you energy independence and security, so life in your home can carry on uninterrupted when the grid goes down. Learn more about how Powerwall functions during extended power outages.
Does the house wiring need alteration? How does it "island" the house from the grid?.....When a utility power outage does occur, your Powerwall instantly disconnects from the grid and restores backup power to your home in a fraction of a second....Each Powerwall can provide up to 5 kW of continuous power. You can back up any number of appliances, so long as their combined power usage does not exceed the total power rating of your Powerwalls.....Best Practices During Power Outages | Tesla Support
Powerwall brings you energy independence and security, so life in your home can carry on uninterrupted when the grid goes down. Learn more about how Powerwall functions during extended power outages.www.tesla.com
PITA
Model 3 Performance
Our Tesla Powerwalls are connected to a Tesla Gateway 2 unit.
It's this unit that manages the Grid connection, through to your house Consumer Unit.
This means nothing in your house wiring needs changing. Nothing.
So if the Grid fails, an automatic breaker in the Gateway 2 unit physically cuts you off from the Grid, rerouting power only from your Tesla Powerwalls and Solar.
All automatically.
Once Grid is back online... clunk... it'll reconnect you, automatically...
This physical disconnect stops any power bleeding back onto the Grid to protect workers trying to repair it.
PITA
Model 3 Performance
Yeah, it is...
The Tesla Gateway 2 also has it's own fuse board connectivity.
There's two sets you can use, one set for backup protection, and the other set for grid-tied.
This is clever because you can wire up your car charger directly to the Gateway 2 unit from outside (saving a slot in your Consumer Unit). I think there are 8 slots in total.
Then choose if you want stuff to work in a blackout or not.
Some heavy duty items, you may not want to work, like pool pumps, or machinery, or car chargers... so that backup power only gets used for the home in a Grid failure.
But other stuff you may want protected on backup like electric driveway gates, driveway lights etc...
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Interesting news
electrek.co
As 'Plug and Charge' and 'V2G' tech standardizes, CEC says widespread deployment of ISO-15118 is imperative
The California Energy Commission (CEC) recommends adoption of ISO-15118 chargers in order to support EV Plug and Charge and V2G tech.
electrek.co
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