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Big increase in PG&E E-9 rates (N. Cal.)

Discussion in 'California' started by slcasner, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Does this force non-E9 EV owners to go into the new E9?
    For instance, what about people with Solar+EV in E7 or E6 ?
     
  2. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    #22 smorgasbord, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
    EDIT: I had made some mistakes on the TOU periods when I first posted this, partially because PG&E revised their first proposal. I believe this post now has the correct information for what was actually adopted. Let me know if there are still inaccuracies.

    It's a bit hard to compare the new and old rates, since the basis and time periods don't match up. Here's one attempt - I'm sure with time we can work up better ways to compare. Here's the document I'm working from: E-4508 Final Resolution (PG&E AL3910-E, 1910-E-A), dated Aug 23, 2012.

    The new plan retain the 3 rates: Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak, changes pricing for each and changes when they are in effect. The current E9 plans have tiered pricing, which means you start at one rate and it increases as your usage that month increases. For me and my one car we often went into tier 5. The new "Schedule EV" plan's pricing doesn't vary by usage. Without getting into the specific tier pricing, here the pricing per kWh & TOU periods for Summer, then Winter.

    Summer:


















    Type Current E9A New Schedule EV
    Peak 30-54 cents 36 cents
    Part-Peak 10-34 cents 20 cents
    Off-Peak 5-20 cents 10 cents




























    Type Current E9A M-F New Schedule EV M-F Current E9A Weekends New Schedule EV Weekends
    Peak 2pm-9pm 2pm-9pm No Peak 3pm-7pm
    Part-Peak 7am-2pm & 9pm-midnite 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm 5pm-9pm No Part-Peak
    Off-Peak mid-7am 11pm-7am 9pm-5pm 7pm-3pm
    Winter:


















    Type Current E9A New Schedule EV
    Peak No Peak in Winter 27 cents
    Part-Peak 10-34 cents 16 cents
    Off-Peak 5-20 cents 10 cents





























    Type Current E9A M-F New Schedule EV M-F Current E9A Weekends New Schedule EV Weekends
    Peak No Peak 2pm-9pm No Peak 3pm-7pm
    Part-Peak 7am-midnite 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm 5pm-9pm No Part-Peak
    Off-Peak mid-7am 11pm-7am 9pm-5pm 7pm-3pm
    So, note that under the new plan you can start charging at 11pm instead of midnight. If you need more time to charge, then the new rate gives you an extra hour. But note that the new plan bumps you into Peak rates 3pm-7pm on weekends, where the existing plan only bumped you to Part-Peak 5pm-9pm on weekends. That could hurt if you're running air conditioning on the weekends (when you're home).

    In general, people selling solar power back to PGE or people who don't go above tier 2 are better off with the existing plan. People who don't have solar and who regularly go into tier 5 might be better under the new plan. I don't know where the math works out for people in tiers 3 and 4.

    I hope I got the numbers right. Let me know if I've made any mistakes and I'll correct them. The E9A numbers are from the latest PGE document for July 2012.
     
  3. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    Good question. According to this, I can stay on E7:

    Select a Rate Option
     
  4. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    PG&E's markup over wholesale energy costs is mind-blowing. Here are the wholesale power prices, delivered to the PG&E system, for the Tuesdays this July, aggregated by the same three blocks of time defined in the tariff. (Prices are in $/MWh, so shift the decimal point one to the left to get the cents/kWh)





































    7/24/2012 7/17/2012 7/10/2012 7/3/2012 Average
    Wholesale
    PG&E
    EV Rate
    Markup
    Off-Peak $ 21.32 $ 21.38 $ 17.76 $ 16.90 $ 19.34 $100 417%
    Part-Peak $ 31.02 $ 27.25 $ 31.61 $ 25.94 $ 28.96 $200 591%
    Peak $ 44.94 $ 31.49 $ 60.03 $ 35.79 $ 43.06 $360 736%
    Source: California Independent System Operator
     
  5. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    Yes, when it's not Enron price-gouging us, it's PG&E themselves! :(
     
  6. jaanton

    jaanton Roadster NA #1026

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    Paying off the DWP bonds due to the power crisis and nuclear decommissioning costs etc. These are the "non-bypassable" costs (among others). I think that's why E-9 is such a problem for PG&E, that is the tier 1 off-peak doesn't even pay these costs. The highest tiers are only explainable to punish peek usage.

    If you're like me and regularly into the top tiers because you have a tiny baseline and really drive your EV a lot this new schedule is great. Tesla owners will probably benefit from this; Leaf and Volt owners - I doubt they win with this. They just don't use enough power.
     
  7. strider

    strider Active Member

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    Thanks for the analysis smorg. I'll make sure to peer at my next PG&E bill and run the numbers both ways.

    Though I'm guessing that once we have a Roadster and Model S we'll be pushing into the high tiers (if we aren't already). So although we're on E-9A now, may move to the new one sooner.
     
  8. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    I'm thinking that due to the Part-Peak to Peak change for Winter, and my ability to stay on lower tiers during winter (get that $0.05 rate) that I'll stay on the E-9A at least until next May, and then look at switching to the new schedule if I think that makes sense.

    Unfortunately, PGE has never given me true usage per hour indication. I get pages and pages of stuff, but it's impossible to figure out anything except my total usage for each of the 3 peak, part-peak, off-peak rates.
     
  9. slcasner

    slcasner Member

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    PG&E is supposed to have their back-end systems act together sufficiently to install SmartMeters for TOU/Net Metering customers "later this year". That would provide the hourly data necessary to accurately evaluate these rate schedules.

    Robert -- Thanks for pointing out the absurd overhead numbers for PG&E. What is typical for the rest of the country?
     
  10. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I did have a SmartMeter until I installed my solar system. It was extremely useful in reducing my usage and motivating me to move some things to off-hours. But when I switched to solar, the SmartMeter went away. Hope that's part of the 'later this year' plan.
     
  11. Andrew Wolfe

    Andrew Wolfe Roadster 472 - S 440

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    strange. I had to have my smart meter installed when I added solar so that I could net-meter.
     
  12. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Let me clarify ... I should have said I can no longer access the SmartMeter data online, now that I have solar. I misspoke in saying I lost the SmartMeter.

    I should have said that I lost daily access to the SmartMeter hourly usage data. And that was extremely useful in tracking down the energy vampires.
     
  13. Andrew Wolfe

    Andrew Wolfe Roadster 472 - S 440

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    I've been following this rate adjustment for some time. Like many of you I wrote a protest letter when the change was first announced and have thus been copied on all of the decisions.

    I am a tier 1 E-9A customer. I at first assumed that the rate increase was bad for me since rates are going up - especially the night-time charging rate - from about $.05 to about $.10. Now that I look more closely, this may be a win for me.

    1) a current $0.21/day meter fee is being dropped.
    2) I am a net producer during the day and a net consumer off-peak. Overall, I consume about 20KWh/month - but since I sell back higher-priced juice during the day, I have no net cost. Since both rates are going up by about the same amount - mostly it will be a wash.
    3) Since part-peak summer rates are going up even more than other rates - I may get a net credit from that.
    4) Since peak will start at 3:00 - I should push even more into the grid at peak rates.

    The true penalties are for low-consumption users who don't sell back during peak time. That's probably many people with moderately sized PVA arrays.

    Of course, now that I look at the numbers - even at $0.40/KWh fixed, my bill would only be $8/month. I think I've already spent too much time thinking about this...

    (I'm still in the $450 August bill pre-solar mindset)
     
  14. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Maybe PG&E reads the forum :). From SmartMeter for Solar Customers

    Yay. I really have hated not being able to monitor online.
     
  15. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    Bonnie, I have a PV system and am on E-7. A couple of weeks ago, I used the following to get the free upgrade to a SmartMeter:

    SmartMeter Program Upgrade Request

    Received an email confirmation shortly after indicating that they'll contact me a few days prior to the installation date. No updates since but, they do the job anyway without me having to plan to stick around at home.
     
  16. strider

    strider Active Member

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    So I'm sitting here w/ my latest PG&E bill and decided to crunch the numbers. As it stands w/ the Roadster we get into Tier 4 in each category. We do not have A/C. 862Kwh billed (128 Peak, 168 Part-Peak, 565 Off-Peak) for a total of $153.33. Running the numbers w/ Smorg's summary (not correcting for time shifts) it looks like I would have paid $136.49 under the new plan. So it's looking like the new plan would be better, especially when we add a Model S which could push us into Tier 5. Does that sound right? Can I call PG&E and move to the new plan now? Granted we're moving into Winter and I haven't looked at those rates.
     
  17. mulder1231

    mulder1231 Active Member

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    #37 mulder1231, Nov 13, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
    In anticipation of getting my Model S, I switched to the E-9A plan last month. I decided to do this now after I did some calculations based on historic hourly usage data that is available for the months we have had our Smart Meter. Today I got my first bill under the E-9A plan and my average rate is actually two cents lower than with the previous E-1 plan (same consumption): $0.20 versus $0.22.

    Per my bill, I was charged the following rates:

    Summer Peak Usage
    Baseline Usage: $0.30178
    101-130% of Baseline: $0.31994
    131-200% of Baseline: $0.50036
    201-300% of Baseline: $0.54036

    Summer Partial Peak Usage
    Baseline Usage: $0.09876
    101-130% of Baseline: $0.11692
    131-200% of Baseline: $0.29734
    201-300% of Baseline: $0.33734

    Summer Off-Peak Usage
    Baseline Usage: $0.03743
    101-130% of Baseline: $0.05559
    131-200% of Baseline: $0.15808
    201-300% of Baseline: $0.19808

    Winter Partial Peak Usage
    Baseline Usage: $0.09864
    101-130% of Baseline: $0.11679
    131-200% of Baseline: $0.29721
    201-300% of Baseline: $0.33721

    Winter Off-Peak Usage
    Baseline Usage: $0.04680
    101-130% of Baseline: $0.06495
    131-200% of Baseline: $0.15808
    201-300% of Baseline: $0.19808

    Note that winter rates are in effect since 11/1, and there is no winter peak rate apparently.

    Assuming that when I get my Model S I'll stay within my current tiers, I will be paying about 20 cents per KwH if I charge my car in the off-peak hours. That amounts to about $71 added to my bill each month with 1,000 miles per month driving.

    Still pretty cheap compared to my current Kia Optima's fuel cost of $280 per month.

    I don't know the rates for Ties 5. But I'm looking forward to the new EV schedule where they will do away with tiering all together. Does anyone know if that schedule has been approved and when it will become effective?
     
  18. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

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    #38 smorgasbord, Nov 13, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
    I would wait until summer rates come back. The new plan has times for Peak rates, even on weekends, so old winter is better than new winter unless you're squarely in Tier 5 (maybe).

    Like I said, I never got actual TOU data, so I can't easily tell for sure.
     
  19. strider

    strider Active Member

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    #39 strider, Jan 15, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
    So I have my first bill w/ both the Roadster and Model S. I am soundly into Tier 5 (I assume that's the Over 300%) line. I just crunched the numbers with ALL of my part peak as Schedule EV peak time (which is isn't but I can't be bothered to mine the SmartMeter data) and the new rate would save me $40/month. So my actual savings would be more since there is some part peak in there. So it looks pretty definitive for me with two EV's and no solar to offset the new rates are better. Going to call PG&E and see if I can switch now.

    Update: Just called PG&E and the new rate is not yet active. The lady I talked to said not until the summer.
     
  20. JohnEC

    JohnEC S 00443

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    The new "EV" rates aren't expected to be out until about mid-year (perhaps later).
     

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