Thanks for posting the actual E9 rate. I am also in the process of switching over to E9a now that I have my MS. Do you happen to know the kWh quota for each tier? I understand it varies from region to region? But I can't imagine it being too much difference between Menlo Park and East Bay. I can't seem to find this information in PG&E website. Based on your calculation, how much $ per month will you be saving once EV rate becomes available in summer?
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Big increase in PG&E E-9 rates (N. Cal.)
- Thread starter slcasner
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Thanks for posting the actual E9 rate. I am also in the process of switching over to E9a now that I have my MS. Do you happen to know the kWh quota for each tier? I understand it varies from region to region? But I can't imagine it being too much difference between Menlo Park and East Bay. I can't seem to find this information in PG&E website. Based on your calculation, how much $ per month will you be saving once EV rate becomes available in summer?
fengshui
Member
It's of page 6 of the E-9 tariff: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf
You'll also need preliminary statement A to decode the regional identifiers: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_PRELIM_A.pdf
Most everything you'll ever want to know on PG&E rates is somewhere in the tariffs site: Pacific Gas & Electric - Tariffs
California has regulated us to the most expensive rates ever! Compare our rates to those elsewhere around the world and we are almost without exception the most expensive. It almost makes it mandatory that everyone has some solar or wind generation to keep you off of the top tiers. Baseline is hard to stay under, and impossible with an electric car.
And they've been using primarily natural gas to generate electricity which is at all time lows.
And Nuclear here from Diable Canyon, which was sold to us in the 70's as the "answer to providing you with cheap electrical power for the rest of your lives" !! Guess they did not live up to that one!
ken830
Model S 85, Model 3 Performance, Model X LongRange
So for a home with average electric usage adding a Model S, is it worth putting in the second meter for E-9B? Will schedule EV make that pointless, since there will be no more tiers??
smorgasbord
Active Member
While there won't be tiers for the new schedule, doing a second meter lets you charge at the relatively cheap $0.10/kWh rate without making your existing daytime usage move into a $0.36/kWh rate. Look at your bill and see what you're current paying per kWh and try to figure out how much of that is Peak or Part-Peak.
strider
Active Member
If your house is empty during the day and you don't run A/C then I would suggest it's not worth it. Your peak-time use will be low.
FalconNinetyD
Active Member
Hard? Make that impossible! Baseline for us here in San Diego is something like 315 kWh/mo. 10 kWh per day barely covers the fridge, DVR's, alarm clocks and compact fluorescent bulbs that we've installed.
Before the Volt and Tesla, we were at about 30 kWh per day.
It's the same in San Jose. Baseline is 320 or so.
Even WITH a 3.5k system is average 500-600 in the summer and in the winter closer to 1,500.
The answer turns to Alexander the Great. Don't worry about electrical rates at all. Do like Alexander did when he cut the Gordian Knot--solve the problem a different way.
The way I did it was to put Solar Panels up. Covers my entire electical bill and saves $2 grand a year in gas costs. The system pays for itself in 6 years.
On the other hand, as my son pointed out, "Gee, dad, that's great. You save $2 grand a year. So looking at the cost of the car, how many years until you break even?"
!@#$%^ little buggers! You teach them to think and reason and they use it against you!
(He has Signature Red Model S #261, BTW, so he didn't listen to his own argument!)
The way I did it was to put Solar Panels up. Covers my entire electical bill and saves $2 grand a year in gas costs. The system pays for itself in 6 years.
On the other hand, as my son pointed out, "Gee, dad, that's great. You save $2 grand a year. So looking at the cost of the car, how many years until you break even?"
!@#$%^ little buggers! You teach them to think and reason and they use it against you!
(He has Signature Red Model S #261, BTW, so he didn't listen to his own argument!)
smorgasbord
Active Member
I just made some corrections and modifications to my "E9" -> "Schedule EV" comparison post, which is located here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6572-Big-increase-in-PG-amp-E-E-9-rates-(N-Cal-)?p=166737&viewfull=1#post166737
It's still hard to tell if you'll be better off with the new rate or not. If you're on E9 now, you can hold onto that until the end of 2014.
Edit: I just ran the numbers on my past 18months of EV usage (~1000 miles/month), where I go into Tier 5 during the Winter months, but only Tier 4 during many of the Summer months. My average overall is just under 20cents/kWh under E9A, including all charges (around 24,000 kWh and $4775). A solid 50% of my usage is during off-peak periods, 30% part-peak, and 20% full-peak.
If I run the new EV Schedule numbers with the same peak/part/off-peak draws, it comes to $855 in total savings, which is about $47/month. I then have to reduce that savings by 18 months times whatever the meter and other fees/taxes/garbage costs - but those can't be $45/month so the new pricing is better for me, assuming the new TOU periods don't mess with my overall TOU balance.
So, I plan on calling PG&E and seeing when I can switch to the new plan. It's somewhat of a crap shoot, because once you switch out, you can't switch back.
It's still hard to tell if you'll be better off with the new rate or not. If you're on E9 now, you can hold onto that until the end of 2014.
Edit: I just ran the numbers on my past 18months of EV usage (~1000 miles/month), where I go into Tier 5 during the Winter months, but only Tier 4 during many of the Summer months. My average overall is just under 20cents/kWh under E9A, including all charges (around 24,000 kWh and $4775). A solid 50% of my usage is during off-peak periods, 30% part-peak, and 20% full-peak.
If I run the new EV Schedule numbers with the same peak/part/off-peak draws, it comes to $855 in total savings, which is about $47/month. I then have to reduce that savings by 18 months times whatever the meter and other fees/taxes/garbage costs - but those can't be $45/month so the new pricing is better for me, assuming the new TOU periods don't mess with my overall TOU balance.
So, I plan on calling PG&E and seeing when I can switch to the new plan. It's somewhat of a crap shoot, because once you switch out, you can't switch back.
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You can thank all the global warming hysteria and the carbon taxes. This is all by design.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvM3EAUN0Vk
smorgasbord
Active Member
I called PGE. The new rates aren't slated to be available until June or July.
I also did another analysis of my current usage. It's hard to figure what tiering will cost you, but I have over 18 months of data that I can just boil down to hours/TOU period and cost/kWh per month.
Luckily for the analysis, the new rate plan doesn't have tiers and doesn't vary the TOU between Summer and Winter. Only the rates in Summer and Winter vary. So, I calculated my current percentage use of Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak during the Summer months only, since those are currently the only months that break it down that way. I got 16.25% Peak, 31.25% Part, and 52.5% Off.
Now, even though the times are slightly different, they're more alike than different, so assuming the same percentage use under the new plan you can calculate the costs simply by multiplying those percentages by the new rates.
Winter should be, for me, an average of $0.146/kWh, versus $0.16 I pay on average today.
Summer should be, for me, an average of 0.154/kWh, versus $0.22 I pay on average today.
Note that the new sums don't include the fixed overhead costs in the new plan, but I don't think those are significant enough in summer to matter. Winter may end up being a wash at worst, but I'll save at least a nickel a kWh in the summer.
I think.
I'd be interested to hear what anyone else on E9A today thinks the new rates will do to their bill.
I also did another analysis of my current usage. It's hard to figure what tiering will cost you, but I have over 18 months of data that I can just boil down to hours/TOU period and cost/kWh per month.
Luckily for the analysis, the new rate plan doesn't have tiers and doesn't vary the TOU between Summer and Winter. Only the rates in Summer and Winter vary. So, I calculated my current percentage use of Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak during the Summer months only, since those are currently the only months that break it down that way. I got 16.25% Peak, 31.25% Part, and 52.5% Off.
Now, even though the times are slightly different, they're more alike than different, so assuming the same percentage use under the new plan you can calculate the costs simply by multiplying those percentages by the new rates.
Winter should be, for me, an average of $0.146/kWh, versus $0.16 I pay on average today.
Summer should be, for me, an average of 0.154/kWh, versus $0.22 I pay on average today.
Note that the new sums don't include the fixed overhead costs in the new plan, but I don't think those are significant enough in summer to matter. Winter may end up being a wash at worst, but I'll save at least a nickel a kWh in the summer.
I think.
I'd be interested to hear what anyone else on E9A today thinks the new rates will do to their bill.
strider
Active Member
Are there new/higher fixed fees w/ Schedule EV vs E9A?
I ran my numbers a few pages back and figured SEV would save us money and that was before we added our Model S. I'll run the numbers again with Model S load added. The other benefit is that I wouldn't have to stay up as late to wait to plug in our Model S (rimshot).
ken830
Model S 85, Model 3 Performance, Model X LongRange
I just got a new meter installed and applied for E9B. Having it dedicated to the car should make it a lot easier to calculate. 60 miles per day and an average of 330 Wh/mi means about 20 kWh per day. Taking our baseline (territory X) into account, and using only off-peak power, we would average about 12 cents per kWh... I think the new schedule EV would be an improvement at around 10-cents per kWh.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
The thing about the EV rate is that without tiers the baseline usage gets more expensive. I think you need to be in tier 4+ of E9A before the EV rate becomes a better deal.
strider
Active Member
Absolutely. Smorg wrote that in his earlier post comparing E9 and SEV. We are in Tier 5 with 2 Tesla's. We are renters so no solar. SEV will definitely save us money.
smorgasbord
Active Member
So, the final rates are out: http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_4231-E.pdf
Slight raises on the summer Peak and Part-Peak.
Summer:
Winter:
Slight raises on the summer Peak and Part-Peak.
Summer:
| Type | Current E9A | New Schedule EV |
| Peak | 30-54 cents | 38 cents |
| Part-Peak | 10-34 cents | 21 cents |
| Off-Peak | 5-20 cents | 10 cents |
| Type | Current E9A M-F | New Schedule EV M-F | Current E9A Weekends | New Schedule EV Weekends | |
| Peak | 2pm-9pm | 2pm-9pm | No Peak | 3pm-7pm | |
| Part-Peak | 7am-2pm & 9pm-midnite | 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm | 5pm-9pm | No Part-Peak | |
| Off-Peak | mid-7am | 11pm-7am | 9pm-5pm | 7pm-3pm |
Winter:
| Type | Current E9A | New Schedule EV |
| Peak | No Peak in Winter | 27 cents |
| Part-Peak | 10-34 cents | 16 cents |
| Off-Peak | 5-20 cents | 10 cents |
| Type | Current E9A M-F | New Schedule EV M-F | Current E9A Weekends | New Schedule EV Weekends | |
| Peak | No Peak | 2pm-9pm | No Peak | 3pm-7pm | |
| Part-Peak | 7am-midnite | 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm | 5pm-9pm | No Part-Peak | |
| Off-Peak | mid-7am | 11pm-7am | 9pm-5pm | 7pm-3pm |
ChriZ
Member
Thanks for the comparison charts. So looking at this at first glance, wouldn't it be more expensive compared to the current E9A? Not sure why people saying it will less since we lose the 4 cents to 10 cents during off peak.
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