Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[StealthP3D]

The limited amount of cash needed for operations and investment does not need to be diversified out of dollars except if the investment and operations are going to be happening in another country, in which case convert the needed money to the currency of that country.

What if that country's currency is not stable? Should Tesla gamble that it's more likely to de-value than appreciate and thus convert it to USD, or some other proxy currency? What if there are tax consequences to leaving it there (or to moving it). What if having the flexibility to move their cash assets between different currencies at will could protect the company from certain types of attacks from entities trying to harm them? What if it could be used to reduce foreign taxes or make it less expensive to convert USD to or from other currencies?

Are you familiar enough with all the potential threats Tesla might face to say with certainty that having flexibility in terms of being able to transfer a certain amount of their cash reserves between different instruments doesn't offer important advantages in terms of being able to minimize those threats or reduce the consequences of those threats? Do you believe a public company should disclose all their strategies publicly?

Do you really think Tesla bought Bitcoin simply as a speculative play that it would increase in value and they could grow their cash reserves?

 

[elasalle]

Then it sounds like you aren't willing to invest in TSLA BTC at all. Which is fine, it doesn't have to be the right investment opportunity for everyone.

ROFL. Good one.
I'm invested since 2013 at $34 pre-split. All the money I can manage by myself is in TSLA. When Solarcity was merged to TSLA, I had no issue. For me the merger made sense. BTC definitely not. Tesla on it's own is already volatile. We don't need volatile squared for the hedge.

BTW, BTC (at least per what I have observed, dips on most weekends. So if Futures rise, and BTC get's back above 35-36, maybe just weekend issue)

Good luck to all TSLA longs for tomorrow!!

 

[Xepa777]

If it's really mission related then Tesla should make its own coin with top of the line ease of transaction and by using the lowest energy being on renewables. This is the best way to crash 10 thousand other coins out there and have one to rule them all. Don't be giving the coin MOST harmful to the environment legitimacy by adopting it. Elon should be trashing it to the ground. Electricity usage will tank once the coin becomes worthless.

Elon seems to like the idea of digital currency. Great, go create your own with a small team of engineers using first principles and renewable energy. This pump and dump and pump of BTC is the dumbest 4D chess I have ever seen.

There's plenty of eco-friendly coins with a lot of strong cross-industry application. For example, Nano, XLM, and the Terra Ecosystem (my personal favorite). Tesla doesn't need to devote resources to creating a new cryptocurrency, there's plenty already to put backing on.

 

[lascavarian]

Do you really think Tesla bought Bitcoin simply as a speculative play that it would increase in value and they could grow their cash reserves?

This is a question for the board. I don’t have a source but rumor is building about how many vehicles were purchased with bit. Not a large number if rumors are to be believed.

Again the board should speak to the expectations and results of the Q1 experiment and how the decision to hold rather than divest came to happen. The bit at 33k and change currently.

 

[StealthP3D]

This is a question for the board. I don’t have a source but rumor is building about how many vehicles were purchased with bit. Not a large number if rumors are to be believed.

Again the board should speak to the expectations and results of the Q1 experiment and how the decision to hold rather than divest came to happen. The bit at 33k and change currently.

My investment style is to pick companies having management with proven ability to lead and then, let them lead.

It's worked really well for me so far. People who don't like what they see should definitely sell and invest in companies that have management styles they approve of. Or, better yet, sell and use the capital to start their own business so they can show us how it's done. Or become the CEO yourself so you can have the backseat drivers yelling instructions from the back seat while you are trying to negotiate the corner at 95 mph.

Do you even know what managements expectations were when they bought bitcoin? Do you expect them to publicly disclose the details? Do you think they might have reasons that it might not be wise to disclose? And, finally, are you playing the long game or the short game, ie, what's more important, the results in 4 weeks or the results in 4 years?

 

[StealthP3D]

ROFL. Good one.
I'm invested since 2013 at $34 pre-split. All the money I can manage by myself is in TSLA. When Solarcity was merged to TSLA, I had no issue. For me the merger made sense. BTC definitely not. Tesla on it's own is already volatile. We don't need volatile squared for the hedge.

Your comments make me think you don't know what real volatility is. Yes, Tesla is more volatile than your average S&P500 company. But there are a lot of public companies much more volatile. Volatility is not bad and it's not a good measure of long-term risk. In fact, I like volatility, it's no big deal. It's impossible to precisely value a company with as much future potential as Tesla so volatility provides better and more clear places to either take profits or build a bigger position.

I also think you are greatly over-estimating how much of the volatility is due to Tesla's Bitcoin activity. Common sense says it's minimal. Tesla was volatile before Bitcoin and it will continue to be volatile with or without it. First principles thinking says it's no big deal to take 5% of your cash and convert it to Bitcoin. And I don't know what Elon's/Tesla's reasons really are and I don't need to know. Because they have a proven ability to run a very difficult company. Not enough people appreciate this. So, I trust they have good reasons for what they do.

Seriously, we cannot be privy to everything they do. Legally they had to disclose the Bitcoin purchases and sales. If it were not for the legal requirements, they probably wouldn't have reported it. Unless that was a necessary part of why they did it. We can speculate but we can never know.

So, it comes down to, "Do you trust Tesla management or not?". If you do, don't worry about it, if you don't trust management, get out! There is no point in being invested in companies with management you cannot trust to do a good job. It's actually the most important criteria for me before I invest in any company.

 

[elasalle]

Your comments make me think you don't know what real volatility is. Yes, Tesla is more volatile than your average S&P500 company. But there are a lot of public companies much more volatile. Volatility is not bad and it's not a good measure of long-term risk. In fact, I like volatility, it's no big deal. It's impossible to precisely value a company with as much future potential as Tesla so volatility provides better and more clear places to either take profits or build a bigger position.

I also think you are greatly over-estimating how much of the volatility is due to Tesla's Bitcoin activity. Common sense says it's minimal. Tesla was volatile before Bitcoin and it will continue to be volatile with or without it. First principles thinking says it's no big deal to take 5% of your cash and convert it to Bitcoin. And I don't know what Elon's/Tesla's reasons really are and I don't need to know. Because they have a proven ability to run a very difficult company. Not enough people appreciate this. So, I trust they have good reasons for what they do.

Seriously, we cannot be privy to everything they do. Legally they had to disclose the Bitcoin purchases and sales. If it were not for the legal requirements, they probably wouldn't have reported it. Unless that was a necessary part of why they did it. We can speculate but we can never know.

So, it comes down to, "Do you trust Tesla management or not?". If you do, don't worry about it, if you don't trust management, get out! There is no point in being invested in companies with management you cannot trust to do a good job. It's actually the most important criteria for me before I invest in any company.

Yup don’t understand it
While back I did not understand what options and covered calls were too right?


I credit you for HODL, don’t want to get personal
, but seriously I think you are overestimating your skills in reading others for starters

as a shareholder we can all have opinions on what Mgmt got right and what they got wrong
- once a threshold is crossed- yes it will be time to leave

 

[Buckminster]

1. BTC is 0.2% of TSLA market cap
2. Elon's interest in Crypto is bigger than Tesla buying and selling BTC
3. By buying and selling, he is stress testing
4. By tweeting about it's impact on climate change he is stress testing
5. Elon is forcing (accelerating) the future whether it be Bitcoin, Dogecoin or something else
6. Let Elon be Elon - he is changing your world for the better
7. You've got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette
8. Our portfolios is just one of the eggs - we are paying our dues for past and future outsized gains

 

[elasalle]

ROFL. Good one.
I'm invested since 2013 at $34 pre-split. All the money I can manage by myself is in TSLA. When Solarcity was merged to TSLA, I had no issue. For me the merger made sense. BTC definitely not. Tesla on it's own is already volatile. We don't need volatile squared for the hedge.

BTW, BTC (at least per what I have observed, dips on most weekends. So if Futures rise, and BTC get's back above 35-36, maybe just weekend issue)

Good luck to all TSLA longs for tomorrow!!

~15% overnight swing
Closed the small position- have some pocket money for memorial day

 

[daniel]

Would you be against Tesla using it's cash to buy commodities futures to hedge against materials increases?

Buying commodities futures when you intend to purchase and use those commodities is a perfectly legitimate business strategy. Buying a commodity you do not intend to purchase and use, or selling a commodity you do not produce are nothing but speculation. It is perfectly legal for individuals to do this, and it's understood that hedge funds do this so if you buy a hedge fund you know what your money is being used for.

If Tesla buys steel futures to lock in the price of steel for its cars, that's fine. If they buy pork belly futures to try to make some money by speculating, that's malfeasance since it is not in the business plan of the company. And BTC is far worse than pork belly futures because at least pork bellies have actual value. BTC, with a transaction cost of around $17 per transaction last time I checked, has abandoned all pretense of being a currency. It is a Ponzi scheme speculation, and a "currency" only for extortionists and other criminals who need a way to transfer wealth that will not be traced.

What if that country's currency is not stable? Should Tesla gamble that it's more likely to de-value than appreciate and thus convert it to USD, or some other proxy currency? What if there are tax consequences to leaving it there (or to moving it). What if having the flexibility to move their cash assets between different currencies at will could protect the company from certain types of attacks from entities trying to harm them? What if it could be used to reduce foreign taxes or make it less expensive to convert USD to or from other currencies?

Are you familiar enough with all the potential threats Tesla might face to say with certainty that having flexibility in terms of being able to transfer a certain amount of their cash reserves between different instruments doesn't offer important advantages in terms of being able to minimize those threats or reduce the consequences of those threats? Do you believe a public company should disclose all their strategies publicly?

Do you really think Tesla bought Bitcoin simply as a speculative play that it would increase in value and they could grow their cash reserves?

If the country's currency is not stable then keep your cash in dollars. As noted above BTC is nothing but a tool for speculation and criminal transactions.

I have no idea WTF Elon was thinking when he used stockholders' money to buy BTC. Elon is known for making some crackpot decisions, and this was one of them.

 

[elasalle]

Defending everything EM says and does is a Fools Errand. ( When he changes his mind, you will need to do the same.)

He is great at what he does, still a Tesla fanboi

 

[Beltsbear]

What are the arguments that it is not Satoshi? Honest question.

Anyone who has seen his actual posts:

Forum Posts | Satoshi Nakamoto Institute

Advancing and preserving Bitcoin knowledge

satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org

Would not attribute that political garbage to him. Not in his style, Satoshi is extremely brief. Not his attitude. Not without signing it. Satoshi has not said a word since 2010. There was a 2014 post that may have been him (I doubt it) but it is too short to gain any information from other then the message "I am not Dorian Nakamoto." The shortness makes it seem like it is from Satoshi, but again, not really an important message other than for Dorian.

Edit:, also a 2011 message to developers, "I have moved onto other things". Which is probably him.

 

[ByeByeJohnny]

Another lever pulled...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1396914548167233537

Unless they actually build their own powerplants that wouldn't actually be built otherwise I don't see any benefit.

 

[wipster]

Unless they actually build their own powerplants that wouldn't actually be built otherwise I don't see any benefit.

Would be concerned about the additional Bitcoin dust however...

/s

 

[elasalle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1396919664219930625

 

[lascavarian]

Miners might be getting a little help reducing their energy consumption.

China Will Likely Ban All Bitcoin Mining Soon - Slashdot

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Bitcoin took investors on another rollercoaster ride over the weekend after a top regulator in China announced a crackdown on mining, a new tack in the country's ongoing fight against the cryptocurrency. The government will "crack down on...

news.slashdot.org

 

[StealthP3D]

Unless they actually build their own powerplants that wouldn't actually be built otherwise I don't see any benefit.

Actually, more info about the carbon footprint of various miners Bitcoin can help fund more renewable generation capacity. The next logical step is to blacklist miners that mine during peak periods, shifting crypto mining to periods when there is excess generation capacity. This might be a tall order but I think I know someone who might be able to make it happen.

My napkin math says this might be a bigger benefit to CO2 levels than the benefit of EV growth over the same time period.

 

[lascavarian]

Do you even know what managements expectations were when they bought bitcoin?

Do you feel better now?

 

[daniel]

Defending everything EM says and does is a Fools Errand. ( When he changes his mind, you will need to do the same.)

He is great at what he does, still a Tesla fanboi

I respect Elon tremendously for making electric cars mainstream, and for building the two best cars I've ever owned: my current Model 3, and the Roadster before that. I am a total Tesla fanboy.

I am extremely disappointed that he failed to understand that speculating in BTC with Tesla's money was inappropriate and a misuse of stockholders' money. Even if you think that BTC is a good thing (which I categorically do not) its volatility makes it a speculation, not a "store of wealth" or a suitable way to exchange dollars to foreign currency for operations abroad. In any case, he's not using it as an exchange medium. He's said he'll just hold it until it becomes environmentally responsible to do anything with it. So in the mean time it's a billion and a half dollars sitting, unproductive, and unavailable for operating expenses or investment. It's nothing but speculation.

Darn it all, Elon, dump that BTC and use the money for research or building plant capacity.

 

[kyzhk]

Actually, more info about the carbon footprint of various miners Bitcoin can help fund more renewable generation capacity. The next logical step is to blacklist miners that mine during peak periods, shifting crypto mining to periods when there is excess generation capacity. This might be a tall order but I think I know someone who might be able to make it happen.

My napkin math says this might be a bigger benefit to CO2 levels than the benefit of EV growth over the same time period.

1) induce arbitrary electricity demand through supporting inefficient crypto currency.
2) Increases rate of renewable electricity sources build-out
3) transition cryptos to energy-efficient protocols
4) excess supply forces expensive fossil fuel energy sources to close down
5) accelerates transition to renewable energy