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Ask the same question for dollars. Another interesting fact, most dollar bills contains illegal drugs.
Yeah, I was thinking of it kind of like marked bills. It's just interesting that if someone steals your bitcoin wallet you can know exactly all the wallets it has mixed with. Sort of like if someone took a gold bar from you then melted it down, mixed it with their gold bar, sent a piece of their gold bar to someone else, and on and on.
 
Yeah, I was thinking of it kind of like marked bills. It's just interesting that if someone steals your bitcoin wallet you can know exactly all the wallets it has mixed with. Sort of like if someone took a gold bar from you then melted it down, mixed it with their gold bar, sent a piece of their gold bar to someone else, and on and on.
There are tumbling services people use when they want to hide their traces. Lots of people send bitcoins to the tumbler, the tumbler sends back some other bitcoins to new addresses. Some of this is legit(ie someone wants to donate money to charity anonymously) and some is theft/drug/tax avoidance etc.
 
There are tumbling services people use when they want to hide their traces. Lots of people send bitcoins to the tumbler, the tumbler sends back some other bitcoins to new addresses. Some of this is legit(ie someone wants to donate money to charity anonymously) and some is theft/drug/tax avoidance etc.
I know but that doesn't really change my analogy, the tumbler just makes a giant gold bar before splitting it up.
Anyway, I find cryptocurrency fascinating even though I think it's not useful for anything productive.
 
Speaking of these non fungible tokens. Given that there has already existed very high quality fake dollars:

Don’t you think that there currently are factories in China, North Korea etc that are devaluating major currencies already? I recommend that you check out the counterfeit currency section in major darknetmarkets and read the reviews for the most popular options, where you can buy $100 for $20 worth of crypto. This is small scale compared to the criminal gangs/governments. Do you think this is sustainable?

Counterfeiting is a serious concern. The fact that dollars and other currencies are counterfeited does not change the facts about crypto: That its volatility and total lack of consumer protection render it useless as a legitimate medium of exchange. Kind of like a man being brought to court for murder and saying "Well what about so-and-so who smokes pot?"
 
I know but that doesn't really change my analogy, the tumbler just makes a giant gold bar before splitting it up.
Anyway, I find cryptocurrency fascinating even though I think it's not useful for anything productive.
Sure, it might not be useful for you. But clearly lots of people are finding it useful. An Argentian father sending money to his kids in schools in another country, a Phillipine son in US sending money to his family or a Swedish mother buying Charlotte’s Web for her epileptic daughter. Fringe use cases, but still use cases. And there is a lot of legitimate uses, me buying hardrives on Newegg etc.

And if you are gonna bootstrap a currency from zero to mainstream, you need to go through all these stages with fringe uses to mainstream with conversion, to mainstream without conversion etc.
 
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Sure, it might not be useful for you. But clearly lots of people are finding it useful. An Argentian father sending money to his kids in schools in another country, a Phillipine son in US sending money to his family or a Swedish mother buying Charlotte’s Web for her epileptic daughter. Fringe use cases, but still use cases. And there is a lot of legitimate uses, me buying hardrives on Newegg etc.

And if you are gonna bootstrap a currency from zero to mainstream, you need to go through all these stages with fringe uses to mainstream with conversion, to mainstream without conversion etc.
Sure but it's not the best technological solution for any of those applications. Sending money overseas is very efficient and easy, it's only political issues that make it difficult. If governments are willing to make overseas transfers difficult then it seems like they could also decide to shut down bitcoin exchanges and prevent financial institutions from doing business with them.
 
How about... the FBI ran a Trojan-horse messaging app that advertised itself as end-to-end encrypted and marketed it to criminals; and a member of DarkSide sent their wallet keys over the app? Trojan Shield: How the FBI Secretly Ran a Phone Network for Criminals

There are plenty of logical explanations beyond lame conspiracy theories.

Lame? "Darkside" , an apparent group of professional hackers, sent their wallet keys over a messaging app because they were fooled by the fbi to thinking it was safe. A group of professional hackers fell for this, lol. Logic, sure, okay. I guess you believed wuhan lab leak was a conspiracy too, eh?
 
Counterfeiting is a serious concern. The fact that dollars and other currencies are counterfeited does not change the facts about crypto: That its volatility and total lack of consumer protection render it useless as a legitimate medium of exchange. Kind of like a man being brought to court for murder and saying "Well what about so-and-so who smokes pot?"

Governments have law enforcement arms dedicated to stopping counterfeits of their currencies from hitting the streets. The US Secret Service was created for that job, protecting government officials came later. They also are tasked with protecting from cyber-based crimes. I have heard they are the most effective law enforcement agency in the US government, though I can't find the cite at the moment. Domestically they intercept over 99% of all counterfeit currency before it hits the streets.

Physical currency is also a tiny fraction of the total of all things denominated in dollars worldwide. I've seen estimates between $1.2 trillion and $2.1 trillion in physical dollars in circulation, but the total is several orders of magnitude more than that. I remember in the 2008 financial crisis the total losses were around $80 trillion. That's just the losses.

The Wikipedia article @heltok posted about superdollars only mentions in passing that the $100 dollar bill implemented security measures in 2013 to counter the counterfeiters and I noted that all the examples in the article are from before 2013.

Counterfeiting coins is kind of a niche business because the only coins that would be worth counterfeiting would be ones that employ precious metals and replace the precious metals with base metals, though it would be very difficult to get the weight right in that case. Almost all coins in circulation today are made from base metal and they are likely going to cost a counterfeiter as much or more than the coin is worth. There is a reason counterfeiters focus on larger denomination notes and not $1 and $5 bills.

The counterfeiter of Euro coins is probably the Chinese state itself and it might be for funding intelligence operations in Europe. Nobody is getting rich doing it. Even for a Chinese mint with Chinese labor costs, the cost to make each fake Euro coin is going to be close to the face value of the coin.

All that aside, government issued money also has an enforcement arm to curb counterfeiting and illegal activity with their money. A lot of counterfeits are caught, but obviously the failure of the war on drugs shows the failures to stop illegal activity. However law enforcement exists and they do catch people who are participating in illegal activity with their money.

Crypto currencies have very limited or non-existent enforcement arms. If someone figures out how to hack or manipulate a currency, they could make it worthless in a short time. The US dollar is the world benchmark currency in large part because even though there are bad actors, it's very difficult for one actor to do major damage to the currency and the law enforcement arm behind the currency catches any fish that get big enough to even pose even a minor threat a threat domestically and puts a good dent in bad actors worldwide.

Maybe nobody will ever figure out how to hack the blockchain of crytocurrencies, but they are all one hack away from being worthless.

It's also possible that crypto may survive and become a valid part of the world economy. IMO it's healthy to be cautious about these things.

@heltok said above that the stock for a number of companies like Tesla and Apple followed the same tulip mania pattern. There are a handful of companies whose stock followed that pattern that survived. In each case they had a compelling product and a good brand reputation. The history of the 90s is a tale of flash dot com stocks that came and went because they were big on hype and low on real value. Those all followed the tulip mania pattern too. The EV industry has seen companies come on the scene with a lot of fanfare and only one has made it to profitability with their stock worth much today.

Sometimes a boom is something that will be of major value in the future, but for every thing that booms and does well, there are 99 things that boomed and died. A smart investor who keeps their head can make a lot of money off booms that eventually go bust if they are wise enough to jump out at the right time. But that's playing the herd against itself. Finding the real long term winners in a field full of future losers is tough. Many of those who jumped on the Tesla bandwagon early and did well think it's easy, but in reality you won the lottery.
 
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Over the years there has been so many times when I have heard newcomers who have never used Bitcoin having a very strong conviction that Bitcoin will never grow large because of reasons. Often the arguments are pretty much
Bitcoin no workie because:
1. Deflation
2. States will ban it
3. Not backed by anything
4. Crime
5. Bitcoin 2.0 will replace it
6. Goods on silkroad/etc nominated in USD
7. Gold is better
8. Consume too much energy

etc etc.

I used to offer everyone on another message board free 0.01BTC if they just downloaded electrum and pasted their generated address. It was pretty crazy to see so many posters arguing why bitcoin was a horrible investment yet refusing to even receive free money.

Imo if you are gonna have a strong opinion about something at least try it first. Instead of wasting 1hour debating it, waste 5min trying it. Ok, now unfortuneately it is prohibitly expensive to try it, but for all the people who failed to do this between 2013-2019 but still had a strong opinion during this time, imo consider what is wrong with you and leave the debate to the people who are sane...

See what papa Elon is doing, he teaches his kid to set up a dogecoin mining rig. Why? To learn what’s it all about. Once you have done this you can enter the intellectual arena, try your arguments, be right sometimes, be wrong sometimes and be less wrong over time. Until then, leave it to the adults.
Well said. Most of the FUD is simply childish arguments that have been debunked over and over again. This thread is the perfect example. No one in the btc space is going to waste the time trying to convince you of anything bc you have to put the time in yourself to have an adult level of understanding. This thread is a perfect example of the lack of understanding of the basics around central banks, stores of value, the history of money, etc, etc.

They don't want to put in the time but would rather post a bunch of nonsense on here for what purpose? To find another leftist that agrees with them? I know they all love and trust central power so much but my goodness it is pathetic.

Joe Doe was on cbnc and said this about crypto. FBI director said this about crypto. NBC said this about crypto. The US government says this about crypto. The Fed Reserve said this about crypto. Are you all really this naive?

Bitcoin doesn't care about anyone's virtue signaling feelings and it will defeat all propaganda.

GAME THEORY.
 
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The fact that entire countries are now acknowledging and adopting Bitcoin is astounding. I didn't think this would happen for years.

Politicians from El Salvador, Paraguay, Panama, Brazil, Mexico and more have all expressed support for Bitcoin adoption.
All the Countries Where Bitcoin Adoption Is Being Considered

There's $100 trillion in the fixed income market that will be re-allocated in the coming 10 years, and I'm betting on Bitcoin to get a meaningful chunk of that market.

This may be the biggest news in btc history. Ofcourse, no play on the MSM all week.

IMF is pooping its pants and calling an emergency meeting. They know it only takes one then the dominoes start to fall. They don't want to lose control.

Do some research on how the IMF works? How they virtue signal but just keep 3rd world countries poor and in their control? The private western central banking systems just creates debt slaves in the USA and the entire world. It is a debt based system and the cycle typically implodes in about 80-100 year cycles. I just looked at my watch and it appears we are right on time. It brings in a great opportunity for central powers to reset their control (ie, "Great Reset")....unfortunately for them and lucky for us (the people) we have bitcoin.

That is right, it only takes one and the dominoes begin to fall. When the central banks devalue currency it destroys 3rd world countries first. BTC gives these citizens censorship proof property rights. It allows them to thrive and save/acquire wealth for their families. These countries realize the earlier they get in the more transformative it will be for the sovereignty of their respective countries. It is funny bc the elites in the USA have been declaring that El Salvodor's president is an authoritarian dictator. Seems the elites like to use this slander alot when an elected leader actually wants to free its citizens. It is called projection.

Cathie Wood understands this.

GAME THEORY.
 
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I am considering either long or short BTC at this level but have a basic question. It seems to me that the cost of launching a new crypto currency is very low so what prevents people from launching various coins leading to uncontrolled number of coins circulating? I understand that the number of BTC is fixed, but what makes people choose BTC vs. the next "hot" coin? Is the worth of BTC purely sustained by how "trendy" it is compared to other coins?
 
I am considering either long or short BTC at this level but have a basic question. It seems to me that the cost of launching a new crypto currency is very low so what prevents people from launching various coins leading to uncontrolled number of coins circulating? I understand that the number of BTC is fixed, but what makes people choose BTC vs. the next "hot" coin? Is the worth of BTC purely sustained by how "trendy" it is compared to other coins?
This thread is a pretty decent summary addressing your point

 
I am considering either long or short BTC at this level but have a basic question. It seems to me that the cost of launching a new crypto currency is very low so what prevents people from launching various coins leading to uncontrolled number of coins circulating? I understand that the number of BTC is fixed, but what makes people choose BTC vs. the next "hot" coin? Is the worth of BTC purely sustained by how "trendy" it is compared to other coins?
You can. But the hard part is convincing millions of people to believe in it’s future value and to be willing to part their hard earned dollars in exchange for it. That’s what Bitcoin, Ethereum etc succeeded in doing. If you want to understand how, I recommend this book:
 
Sure but it's not the best technological solution for any of those applications. Sending money overseas is very efficient and easy, it's only political issues that make it difficult. If governments are willing to make overseas transfers difficult then it seems like they could also decide to shut down bitcoin exchanges and prevent financial institutions from doing business with them.
For what is worth, my personal interest in crypto (Cardano and Algorand, for the most part) has spawn from understanding better that what you say is NOT true in most African countries.
High fees, no economic identity, no loans, high interest, very volatile national currencies... Crypto - especially non proof-of-work crypto - has very real use cases in places where "capitalism" - for whatever reason - failed.
 
I am considering either long or short BTC at this level but have a basic question. It seems to me that the cost of launching a new crypto currency is very low so what prevents people from launching various coins leading to uncontrolled number of coins circulating? I understand that the number of BTC is fixed, but what makes people choose BTC vs. the next "hot" coin? Is the worth of BTC purely sustained by how "trendy" it is compared to other coins?
This is exactly what happened. But only few communities and coins are thriving.
 
It seems to me that the cost of launching a new crypto currency is very low so what prevents people from launching various coins leading to uncontrolled number of coins circulating?
More than 10,000 different cryptocurrencies are traded publicly, according to CoinMarketCap.com, a market research website.
 
For what is worth, my personal interest in crypto (Cardano and Algorand, for the most part) has spawn from understanding better that what you say is NOT true in most African countries.
High fees, no economic identity, no loans, high interest, very volatile national currencies... Crypto - especially non proof-of-work crypto - has very real use cases in places where "capitalism" - for whatever reason - failed.
I would be curious where most non-mining crypto transactions are taking place and where most of the owners reside. I suspect that it's disproportionately in rich western countries where monetary transfer are quite easy and cheap.
A non proof-of-work crypto with a stable value sounds great. Are there any ideas about how to do loans with crypto?
 
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I'm not supporting this movement, just passing along the story. :rolleyes:

Benzinga - 3 hours ago: 'Clear Manipulation For Amusement's Sake,' Crypto Group Trying To Oust Elon Musk As Tesla CEO Says There's Sense Of 'Betrayal'

Excerpt:

Tesla Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) CEO Elon Musk has ruffled enough feathers with his fervent tweets on cryptocurrency that a group has launched a whole new project aimed simply at putting an end to his alleged market manipulation. Benzinga talked to the people behind StopElon (STOPELON) on their ambitious plans to oust Musk as the CEO of Tesla and "rid the world of cryptocurrency manipulation."
If BTC can't keep its value because some dude is displeased with it on the internet then it has no legs. Tesla was attacked by every MSM one can think of, every analyst one can think of, and every famous short seller one can think of yet here we are. That's the difference between a good investment and one that's trash.