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bjorn nyland's test of tesla vision

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Yes we all know US roads are much simpler to navigate, and WholeMarsBlog is essentially Tesla PR on twitter, however the fact this stuff can run on all our cars is pretty amazing.

Personally I'll take this over a $5 rain/light sensor any time. Its just a shame we have no idea when EU regulators will allow anything close to this for our cars.

 
Yes we all know US roads are much simpler to navigate, and WholeMarsBlog is essentially Tesla PR on twitter, however the fact this stuff can run on all our cars is pretty amazing.

Personally I'll take this over a $5 rain/light sensor any time. Its just a shame we have no idea when EU regulators will allow anything close to this for our cars.


I think you’ve missed the point about accountability. I’d take an hour on the motorway at L3 and driving the rest than letting the car drive everywhere but having to pay attention the whole time.
 
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And yet here we are with neither

The lack of FSD beta development in Europe isn't really down to Tesla sadly. EU regulators I fear will never allow its development, as the views like below are very entrenched here. Perfection the is enemy of progress, not a term many in Europe are comfortable with.

I think you’ve missed the point about accountability. I’d take an hour on the motorway at L3 and driving the rest than letting the car drive everywhere but having to pay attention the whole time.
 
Personally I'll take this over a $5 rain/light sensor any time. Its just a shame we have no idea when EU regulators will allow anything close to this for our cars.
The two are not mutually exclusive and their decision to provide a crap system before a decent alternative is viable is still inexcusable in my eyes.
 
Perfection the is enemy of progress, not a term many in Europe are comfortable with.
Can I have some of what you’re smoking

Nobody is talking about perfection. We’re talking basic function.

And the regulations aren’t stopping Tesla do lots of things in Europe, you’ve just adopted the usual Tesla siege mentality to find someone else to blame.

Nothing in the regulations stop us having AP turn right across traffic, the only concession would be to use tap the indicator to confirm the operation as an example.
 
I think you’ve missed the point about accountability. I’d take an hour on the motorway at L3 and driving the rest than letting the car drive everywhere but having to pay attention the whole time.
Long, boring motorway trips are the only time I’d want to use FSD. I really enjoy driving, and the thought of a car without a steering wheel horrifies me.

If true FSD becomes a reality, which won’t happen this decade in the UK, then surely the performance of the cars will become obsolete while using it. There may be “sport” modes and “comfort” modes but I can’t see any circumstances where my M3P would accelerate to 60mph in 3.1 seconds while driving autonomously.

Yesterday I drove both ways along the B5105 in North Wales. It’s a great driver’s road. There was lots of slow holiday traffic and some agricultural vehicles but I was able to use the performance of my car to overtake and maintain a good pace. Would FSD understand the concept of overtaking lines of vehicles and be able to do it safely? If not then on single carriageway roads with the national speed limit you’d always be restricted to the speed of the slowest vehicle. Could be very frustrating.
 
Long, boring motorway trips are the only time I’d want to use FSD. I really enjoy driving, and the thought of a car without a steering wheel horrifies me.
Also congested roads and long queues where you really want to get your hands off the wheel. And there’s minimal risk at those low speeds.
A 4y old BMW with Traffic Jam Assist currently does it better than a Tesla..
 
Yes we all know US roads are much simpler to navigate, and WholeMarsBlog is essentially Tesla PR on twitter, however the fact this stuff can run on all our cars is pretty amazing.

Personally I'll take this over a $5 rain/light sensor any time. Its just a shame we have no idea when EU regulators will allow anything close to this for our cars.

I suspect an overwhelming majority of owners much prefer driving themselves and having a sensor that meant we could see where we were going in inclement weather.

I don’t really get this obsession of a car being able to drive you somewhere all by itself.
 
I suspect an overwhelming majority of owners much prefer driving themselves and having a sensor that meant we could see where we were going in inclement weather.

I don’t really get this obsession of a car being able to drive you somewhere all by itself.
Fully agreed.
A human eye or a camera can be blinded by a glare or reflection. A radar / LiDAR can’t.

What about FSD driving at night?
Seems to be a huge overlook
 
While we have strayed we way off lights, I realise that I don't know if there are any cases where an accident (Tesla or other) has been attributed to poor performance of automatic systems. I'm actually surprised Bjorn hasn't had a meltdown previously over auto lights. I guess this time it is the vehicle's insistence that they remain active that is so annoying.

The issue is does the manufacturer have any responsibility / liability for consequences of vehicle behaviour, or is that just wrapped up in the insurance rating and premiums?

On the broader issue of full automation, it seems that especially in early days, manufacturers will have to carry the risk of automatic driving accidents.

Has Tesla been picking up the cost of curbed wheels for FSD Beta drivers?
 
While we have strayed we way off lights, I realise that I don't know if there are any cases where an accident (Tesla or other) has been attributed to poor performance of automatic systems. I'm actually surprised Bjorn hasn't had a meltdown previously over auto lights. I guess this time it is the vehicle's insistence that they remain active that is so annoying.

The issue is does the manufacturer have any responsibility / liability for consequences of vehicle behaviour, or is that just wrapped up in the insurance rating and premiums?

On the broader issue of full automation, it seems that especially in early days, manufacturers will have to carry the risk of automatic driving accidents.

Has Tesla been picking up the cost of curbed wheels for FSD Beta drivers?
No liability until Level 3 autonomy. In the current L2, driver is responsible at all times. That’s why it is so important to move forward, and UNECE regulations updated that by allowing it as of last month.

The loophole with FSD as I understand it is that very often, it hands back control to the driver in every tricky / imminent crash situation without a moment notice, so effectively, FSD is never « in charge » when a collision occurs, legally, as it surrendered control over to you a second before..
 
Tesla classifies pretty much everything as being "in beta", including the wipers. When is any of it likely to be out of beta? Who knows, potentially never.

As it stands Tesla essentially say that they don't stand behind these features and that any errant behaviour and consequences that follow - if you're unable to prevent it - are entirely the owner's problem. Autopark grinding your alloys along the kerb? Sorry, it's beta. Autopilot gives up mid corner and drives off the road because the steering angle has been exceeded? Beta.

What you can say for Tesla is that unlike other manufacturers they let owners use these autonomous features, however buggy or imcomplete they might be, wherever they want, which is in my opinion both a blessing and a curse. My previous car, an i3, only had "traffic jam assist" (or something like that) that would only work on motorways, at less than 30mph. It used to irritate me that it was so limited, so you can imagine test driving a Tesla how happy I was that I could use it wherever I wanted. The downside, I think, is that Autopilot has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than people realise it is. I remember seeing posts from people who have had accidents because they've used it in situations where it's not qualified for at all.

Other manufacturers seem to err much more on the side of caution, and deploy systems with limited functionality that they stand behind. I might be wrong but I don't think any of them sell these systems in a "beta" format and tell customers that basically anything can happen and it's their fault if it does.

All of that is to that say Autopilot is pretty cool, but it is severely limited. The car won't drive around any corner that is too sharp, warning you that it is going to give up and then doing so (which in my opinion is crazy, but there you go). Other features can and have caused accidents when used, e.g. Autopark grinding alloys on kerbs or hitting parked cars. Other autonomous aspects seem to have lagged massively behind the competition, which you definitely can't blame UNECE for. The Kia EV6, possibly others, has impressive remote self parking and summon, as does the Ioniq, both of which work a lot better than Tesla's Summon does - which can't do remote self parking at all, and in the videos linked above the operators are a fair distance from the car, well beyond the range Summon would stop working completely.

Tesla is very impressive at selling their autonomous stuff, and in the States with FSD beta it's fair to say that I'd probably be happier with it than I am, but in Europe it is very weak and Tesla just aren't interested in development over here. I don't see why I should pay full price for a product that has unfinished features, so I most likely won't when it comes to buying my next car unless there is a dramatic change of attitude.
 
sell these systems in a "beta" format
This seems to be problematic as in effect seems to try and bypass the seller's obligation for goods to meet normal 'sale of goods' conditions.

It seems to me that selling a 'beta' product doesn't work as there is little recourse and what you have actually bought isn't even clear especially as it (hopefully) evolves and improves as the buyer was given to expect it would.
 
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