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Blind spot hardware changes pending?

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I was thinking about that. In an ideal world, where the sensor was foolproof (and no sensor is foolproof), is the steering totally fly-by-wire such that it could prevent you from turning the wheel? I kinda doubt it...
There's enough control that it can steer for you, but I believe (and hope!) that it's not strong enough to override you if you know better than it does. With the current level of sophistication of self drive systems, we are still a very long way away from a car that should be able to override a human who is doing something on purpose. (though lots of warnings are a good thing!)

- - - Updated - - -

I was thinking more in terms of the lane assist function I was playing with in the Audi a few weekends ago. With the TACC engaged, it actually exhibits the basics of self-drive... but knows if it hasn't received input from the driver and complains!

The Lane Assist watches the lane lines and keeps the car running in the centre. If you approach a lane edge, say with the intent to change lanes, and you haven't engaged the turn signal, it provides some resistance and vibration in the steering wheel. You can easily push through it, but you'd have to be really out of it to not recognize it was telling you something.

I don't know if the Blind Spot system tied into the steering as well, but it does turn on an amber light on the mirror edge. I wasn't going to test it THAT far... :cool:
I believe Tesla has indicated that this is the plan, if you try to change lanes despite the white arc, I think it's supposed to change to a red arc and vibrate the steering wheel. Not enough to prevent you from doing it (sometimes you need to do things that the sensors don't understand) but enough to know that it's trying to tell you something.
 

Stoneymonster

Active Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,787
1,064
Aptos, Ca
There's enough control that it can steer for you, but I believe (and hope!) that it's not strong enough to override you if you know better than it does. With the current level of sophistication of self drive systems, we are still a very long way away from a car that should be able to override a human who is doing something on purpose. (though lots of warnings are a good thing!)

Totally agree, and I can come up with lots of scenarios where overriding the blind-spot warning (even if it was correct!) would be necessary. Was mostly wondering from a technical point of view whether it could be done.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
I've tried driving with the mirrors adjusted the "right" way but I just couldn't get used to it! Since they are facing more outwards than the "wrong" way, you can also see cars that are 2 lanes away from you. That makes it very confusing, especially at night because it can get tricky to tell if that car is one lane over or two.

How long did you give it? It might take a few weeks but once you get used to not seeing the side of the car it is much better.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
How long did you give it? It might take a few weeks but once you get used to not seeing the side of the car it is much better.
If by better you mean dangerous, hazardous, and deadly....

Just because you can't see your blind spot by turning your head anymore doesn't mean it magically vanished, you've just moved it to somewhere harder to see.
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,631
22,278
Texas
Just because you can't see your blind spot by turning your head anymore doesn't mean it magically vanished, you've just moved it to somewhere harder to see.

You still turn your head, you just look at the camera first.
 

brucet999

Active Member
Mar 12, 2015
2,679
1,489
Huntington Beach, CA
Will we ever be happy with our cars? :) If people had their mirrors PROPERLY adjusted there would be no need for "blind spot" warning because a properly adjusted mirror eliminates any blind spot.

I can't agree with you there. I drive a work van with big side mirrors and no back windows so no center rear view at all; still had to install small convex mirrors to enhance blind spot vision. My Lexus RX350 has fairly large side mirrors that show a smaller field of vision, but nevertheless do a pretty good job showing blind spots.

Twice recently I have rented cars with lower body style and mirrors designed by stylists instead of engineers. Both were too small, especially in the upper-outside quadrant, and I missed seeing cars overtaking me, once as I was about to pull out from parallel parking spot and once when I had to change lanes to avoid a stopping car in the right lane. Tesla mirrors are better than those rental cars but display noticeably less field of vision than even the RX350
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
You still turn your head, you just look at the camera first.
Except that in your proposed setup turning your head is no longer enough because your blind spot is further back and closer to your car making it MUCH harder to see.

Best to leave your mirrors adjusted the way every driving school and every driver's text recommends and shoulder check the normal way.
 

iKhalid

Member
Feb 18, 2014
775
92
Ottawa, ON
I'm not sure why Tesla reinvents the wheel on things that are properly done by other manufacturers. I understand the whole concept of cars needed to be redefined and it makes sense and that's why I bought a Tesla myself, but there are simple stuff that took years of experience and could've been used the way they are.

Here are a few examples that Tesla went with and then reverted/will be reverting back to the way other manufacturers do them:
1. The topic you're discussing here: the position of the blind spot warning.
2. The seats. Both front and rear. The headrests (the rear ones), the cheap plastic in the back of the front seats, etc.
3. Cup holders. No centre console.
4. Rear seat belt buckle. I had to buy an extender from my kids booster.
5. Sun visors.
6. Front air defroster.
and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few other things...
 
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mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,867
Toronto, ON
I'm not sure why Tesla reinvents the wheel on things that are properly done by other manufacturers. I understand the whole concept of cars needed to be redefined and it makes sense and that's why I bought a Tesla myself, but there are simple stuff that took years of experience and could've been used the way they are.

I think it's because Tesla wanted to lock down the hardware and offer upgrades and improvements through software as much as possible. As such, the blind spot warnings show up on the dash.
 

RDoc

S85D
Aug 24, 2012
2,723
1,572
Boston North Shore
If by better you mean dangerous, hazardous, and deadly....

Just because you can't see your blind spot by turning your head anymore doesn't mean it magically vanished, you've just moved it to somewhere harder to see.
If you adjust it properly the blind spot is far too small for a car or even a motorcycle to occupy. I've done it this way for decades.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
If you adjust it properly the blind spot is far too small for a car or even a motorcycle to occupy. I've done it this way for decades.
And I'm sorry, you've been wrong for decades. What you are doing is dangerous. A motorcycle, a bicycle, or a pedestrian, can definitely fit in your new blind spot. Either that or you're adding convex mirrors, it's one or the other.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I love how those pictures always use animations and not reality, they also conveniently never show the places that are no longer covered (and don't place things in those spots)

Show me a driving school or government publication that suggests this method, or show me research that recommends it. There is none, and there's a very good reason for that, because it's simply DANGEROUS to do it.
 

LetsGoFast

Active Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,329
101
Virginia
Show me a driving school or government publication that suggests this method, or show me research that recommends it. There is none, and there's a very good reason for that, because it's simply DANGEROUS to do it.

Actually, there was a definitive research paper by the Society of Automotive Engineers that suggested it in 1995 that pretty much settled the question so clearly that I don't think there has ever been other research into the question. It has never been discredited and there are absolutely driving schools that teach it and insurance companies that recommend it. You are right that there are still blind spots, but they are substantially reduced compared to the "standard" method.

I do agree with you that convex mirrors would be a better solution, although I prefer aspheric mirrors like Saab had on the 9-5 and 9-3.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I'm not even going to discuss this further. You are risking peoples lives, and nothing I can say will bring you out of your fantasy world that blind spots can magically be made to vanish.

Bottom line. Shoulder check, the consequences otherwise are on your conscience (and your insurance, and your criminal record)
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
Actually, there was a definitive research paper by the Society of Automotive Engineers that suggested it in 1995 that pretty much settled the question so clearly that I don't think there has ever been other research into the question. It has never been discredited and there are absolutely driving schools that teach it and insurance companies that recommend it. You are right that there are still blind spots, but they are substantially reduced compared to the "standard" method.

I'm not even going to discuss this further. You are risking peoples lives, and nothing I can say will bring you out of your fantasy world that blind spots can magically be made to vanish.

Bottom line. Shoulder check, the consequences otherwise are on your conscience (and your insurance, and your criminal record)

I think you don't want to discuss it further because LetsGoFast just provided proof that what you've been saying is wrong, and you can provide nothing other than your own repetitive assertions of being right. Personally I think I'd tend to believe a study done by The Society of Automotive Engineers over someone's personal opinion, no matter how loudly or frequently he yells it at me, but then again, that's just me.

And just to counter the argument that you are so fond of making about how dangerous it is not to shoulder check, and how people are going to get killed, etc., what happens if in the second or two while you're shoulder checking something jumps out in front of your car, or a car in front of you stops short? Shoulder checking is not without danger too, as it requires, by definition, not looking in the direction your vehicle is travelling.

I also don't want to debate this because I've already decided that I'll choose to trust the study done by The Society of Automotive Engineers, what my experience has been using my mirrors adjusted that way, and basic common sense.

Edit: Here's a thread with the result of shoulder checking--http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/43510-The-dream-comes-crashing-down

Some pictures in this post: The dream comes crashing down - Page 4

Quote from the unfortunate OP:

Update on what actually happened, I redrove the route today in my chevy volt. I was coming down the on ramp going 40-50 mpg I looked to my left to make sure there were no cars in my lane so I could merge, I then looked ahead of me the car in front of me broke and I couldn't move in time. So turns out I was not to close to the car but she suddenly stopped right after the on ramp as I was merging.
 
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Elshout

Member
Feb 3, 2013
123
1
Novato
Blind Spot Detection Needs Drastic Improvement

I do think putting it in the mirrors would be better but TM is trying to do away with mirrors. However, I sent TM a note about some suggestions for improvements (like they listen to me :biggrin:). For the time being I would like to see the blind spot detector show up in yellow, not white. too much white already on the speedo and the white arch gets lost. Even a single red line instead of white with double red for impending accident would be better.

Moving forward. IF TM replaces side mirrors with cameras (maybe even a retrofit...OK, I'm dreaming) then the small camera stalk could have a red warning indicator?

Completely agree that the detector should show up either yellow or orange and much bigger. If one is using navigation, the map to the left of the speedometer completely obliterates the white arc. On my P85D, about 50% of the time I get no indication on the left side. Think yellow or orange arrows something like the turn signal indicators and located under these would be much better. This is the worst blind spot detector of any car I have driven. My wife's new Ford Fusion Hybrid is an order of magnitude better at 1/3 the cost of the P85D.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,426
5,167
Adjust your mirrors out properly to show the blind spot. Of course engineers will tell you that but you shldnt need engineers. It is just common sense. My insurance company amica sent a flyer that said adjust your mirrors out to show the blind spot. I thought yes of course.. and they should know since they pay the claims when people's mirrors show half of their car and just a duplicate of the rear view mirrors. Makes no sense to do that.

And for that reason it wld be more helpful for the blind spot warnings to be on mirror.
 
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Brightonuk

Member
Mar 16, 2014
418
50
Plantation
These threads always get off track.... this one people who know better tout "position your mirrors" the issue is not how you position your mirrors but the Blind Spot Detection on the model S and how it can be improved.

That said and back to the point I understand that cars built after August 2012 may have a blind spot harness, I (with the help of a forum member) located my park assist harness installed the Tesla sensors and had Tesla activate it .
I think that the blind spot wiring harness is also in that bundle of unused connections, can anyone confirm this? if so will it be it compatible with the current blind spot software?
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,426
5,167
Since you should check your mirrors the blind spot hardware shld have indicators in the mirrors. Sorry if you didn't understand that from the last sentence in the post above. Also reminders to adjust mirrors in any discussion of blind spot detection is a worthy psa
 

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