Blue Origin - Booster Reuse - New Shepard

[Grendal]

So far, BO has only landed successfully on land. The flight profile and everything they have learned by experience is only the most simple and basic situation. Also, it is unlikely that they will be doing anything like the landing profile they had with New Shepard. The difference between landing on a somewhat stationary ship/barge and a moving ship from an orbital launch boost profile is also utterly different. However if you can land on a somewhat stationary ASDS/ship (it is still moving in three dimensions) then you can land on a ship that is in motion as well. SpaceX has done it on an ASDS and if it were necessary and available then I'm sure they could pull it off on a moving ship as well. It is really not much more complex than what they are already doing.

I think for BO it would actually be more expensive to find or build an extra large ASDS than it would to find a used container ship or a used tanker of some sort and modify that. A large ship will not have the same station keeping ability that the ASDS has. So it either sits still and is tossed about creating a randomly angling surface much more dramatic than the ASDS or the ship is in motion creating a much more stable landing surface. So, according to the much more experienced SpaceX enthusiasts with science and engineering degrees, BO's animation is probably correct that New Glenn will likely be landing on a moving ship.

Either way, I'm expecting a number of failures before BO gets it right just like SpaceX did.

I am actually most fascinated with the fact that BO seems to be doing a completely different re-entry profile than SpaceX. From what I gather it will be much more fuel intensive but have less reentry damage. My common sense is telling me that there will probably be more stresses on the rocket body in this situation though. If they do go about this in a completely different way then I would consider that a huge win because then there will be more than one way to achieve reusability. Very cool.

It clearly does not need to be "moving" for a successful stage landing. The SpaceX ASDS's hold position to within a meter (according to Elon) during a stage landing.

I'm not so sure about that. Remember the SpaceX video showing the three camera view of an ASDS landing for JCSAT 14? Here it is:

On the second angle you can see the ocean in the background. Look at it closely and you can see a pretty significant amount of movement compared to the ASDS. It sure looks like more than a meter to me. That doesn't mean that Elon knows something more than I do, of course. Maybe it is less than 1 meter change before touchdown actually occurs because of data flow between the booster and the ASDS.

 

[ecarfan]

Look at it closely and you can see a pretty significant amount of movement compared to the ASDS. It sure looks like more than a meter to me.

I see some movement which appears to be the deck pitching. My understanding of Elon's statement "within a meter" is that is in reference to a set of GPS coordinates designating a location on the surface of the planet, not that the ASDS deck remains level to within a meter from one end to the other. But I cannot be certain of that.

 

[scaesare]

Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX's president, admitted: "We have recovered pieces of the first stages. The first stages weren't even getting as far as deploying their parachutes – they were breaking up during atmospheric re-entry."

Next Big Future: Why Spacex Abandoned Parachuting into Water for Reusable Rockets

Reading that article from 2011 and it sounds like such a pipe dream...

 

[Grendal]

Now we have info directly from Bezos on this:

Seth Miller on Twitter

New Glenn video but with Bezos commenting: The ship will be underway with ship-stabilizing fins, leg-out capability, and a mention that the upper stage will use a vacuum version of the BE-4. I think up until now the upper stage was thought to be the BE-3 New Shepard engine.

Bezos talking about the New Glenn:

Bezos shows off reusable 'New Glenn' rocket

 

[ecarfan]

The ship will be underway with ship-stabilizing fins, leg-out capability

Interesting that the recovery ship will be moving during stage landing. I guess it will not have station-keeping capability. But what is "leg-out capability"?

 

[Grendal]

Interesting that the recovery ship will be moving during stage landing. I guess it will not have station-keeping capability. But what is "leg-out capability"?

New Glenn has 6 landing legs. A loss of one of those will not prevent a successful landing. It's a bit like SpaceX's engine out capability but with legs. I think seeing the couple losses due to landing leg failure from SpaceX made them push for more landing legs on New Glenn.

 

[jkn]

Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX's president, admitted: "We have recovered pieces of the first stages. The first stages weren't even getting as far as deploying their parachutes – they were breaking up during atmospheric re-entry."

Next Big Future: Why Spacex Abandoned Parachuting into Water for Reusable Rockets

The Landing Pad Ship needs to be moving, like any ship without power it heaves and sways...

Seth Miller on Twitter

Why did it broke down? It probably turned sideways in high speed. It is not designed for large sideways forces.

Flat bottom barge, vs. ship...

It is not wider than large ship is. So it is not passively more stable than large ship. SpaceX drone uses propellers for stability. If BO does more complex landing on moving target, they have better reason for it than stability.

Speed alone does not make ship very stable.

 

[jkn]

I'm not so sure about that. Remember the SpaceX video showing the three camera view of an ASDS landing for JCSAT 14? Here it is:

On the second angle you can see the ocean in the background. Look at it closely and you can see a pretty significant amount of movement compared to the ASDS. It sure looks like more than a meter to me. That doesn't mean that Elon knows something more than I do, of course. Maybe it is less than 1 meter change before touchdown actually occurs because of data flow between the booster and the ASDS.

Yes there is relative movement. Perhaps drone is stable and sea moves? I think rocket can only land on horizontal surface.

Now we have info directly from Bezos on this:

Seth Miller on Twitter

New Glenn video but with Bezos commenting: The ship will be underway with ship-stabilizing fins, leg-out capability, and a mention that the upper stage will use a vacuum version of the BE-4. I think up until now the upper stage was thought to be the BE-3 New Shepard engine.

Bezos talking about the New Glenn:

Bezos shows off reusable 'New Glenn' rocket

Those fins need speed. Landing on moving target requires match of 4 coordinates x,y,z,t. For stationary platform t is trivial. Simpler solution is to stabilize landing platform with propellers.

 

[ggr]

Yes there is relative movement. Perhaps drone is stable and sea moves? I think rocket can only land on horizontal surface.




Those fins need speed. Landing on moving target requires match of 4 coordinates x,y,z,t. For stationary platform t is trivial. Simpler solution is to stabilize landing platform with propellers.

No, that's too simplistic. They also have to match velocity in three axes, with delta-z and delta-y being close to zero, and delta-x being close to the velocity of the target, whether moving or not, and they have to stabilize rotation around the three axes too. There are differential equations in 13 variables.

Edit: of course I forgot another three variables: the rotational orientation, two of them must be for the rocket to be upright; I don't know if the rocket cares which way the writing on the rocket is pointing, but that will affect all of the controls.

 

[jkn]

No, that's too simplistic. They also have to match velocity in three axes, with delta-z and delta-y being close to zero, and delta-x being close to the velocity of the target, whether moving or not, and they have to stabilize rotation around the three axes too. There are differential equations in 13 variables.

Edit: of course I forgot another three variables: the rotational orientation, two of them must be for the rocket to be upright; I don't know if the rocket cares which way the writing on the rocket is pointing, but that will affect all of the controls.

It was not too simplistic for a forum post For landing to moving ship you have to be in correct place at correct time.

If rocket comes down few seconds too early or too late, then landing place will change. Of course this can be solved. It is only more complicated.


I don't think landing rocket solves differential equations. For vertical direction I would write function giving target speed. Perhaps v(h) = sqrt(h*g). If speed is exactly that then trust with F= 1.5 m*g, if faster increase thrust, if lower decrease. Perhaps I would need to solve differential equation to find optimum v(h) (m is not constant), but rocket does not need to solve it. Stabilizing rotation and matching vertical coordinates are separate problems, for stationary platform.

For an airplane situation is more complex, because forces generated by control surfaces depends on speed (also wind) and attitude. Although m is practically constant.

 

[Grendal]

Here is a link to an article with a couple new pictures of the interior of the New Shepard capsule:

Blue Origin's crew capsule: Inside the spaceship Bezos built

The barrel in the center of the capsule is not an extra large Echo or Alexa. It is the emergency escape solid rocket engine.

 

[ecarfan]

Wow, sign me up! I like the looks of that much better than the Virgin Galactic ship.

 

[Grendal]

Wow, sign me up! I like the looks of that much better than the Virgin Galactic ship.

My impression is that it is a LOT safer too. SpaceShipOne worked well for its size, if you try to scale it up to a larger size as VG has been trying to do it just doesn't seem to work properly.

 

[Grendal]

Bringing back an old thread but it's been a full year since we've seen or heard anything about New Shepard. Blue Origin built a new booster and new crew capsule and tested both successfully yesterday.

 

[ecarfan]

Capsule “speed at landing” was 1mph according to that video. Sure looked faster than that. That was quite the dust cloud for 1mph.

After watching SpaceX successfully land a total so far of 15 (I think?) orbital class boosters for well over a year now, what BO is doing just isn’t that exciting. I know that eventually BO will also be able to do what SpaceX has now been doing for so long, but BO is years behind.

I do sincerely hope that BO becomes a viable competitor in the launch business.

 

[hockeythug]

Capsule “speed at landing” was 1mph according to that video. Sure looked faster than that. That was quite the dust cloud for 1mph.

After watching SpaceX successfully land a total so far of 15 (I think?) orbital class boosters for well over a year now, what BO is doing just isn’t that exciting. I know that eventually BO will also be able to do what SpaceX has now been doing for so long, but BO is years behind.

I do sincerely hope that BO becomes a viable competitor in the launch business.

It fires thrusters on the bottom right before it lands to get it down to that speed. If you pause the video around 1:16 you can see it better. The Soyuz does the same thing.

 

[ggr]

It fires thrusters on the bottom right before it lands to get it down to that speed. If you pause the video around 1:16 you can see it better. The Soyuz does the same thing.

Yeah, those thrusters fire for a fraction of a second, and bring the speed down from about 20mph (IIRC). So it's like landing at 20mph on a thick mattress.

 

[N5329K]

Note the capsule only made it up to near space. Seems like kind of a spectacular carnival ride.
Robin

 

[Grendal]

Note the capsule only made it up to near space. Seems like kind of a spectacular carnival ride.
Robin

Which is all it's supposed to be. Between New Shepard and Virgin Galactic's suborbital spaceplane, I'd take New Shepard for safety and success every time. The New Shepard has also given the company a lot of knowledge about their rocket engine. It can and probably will be used in future New Glenn and possibly New Armstrong launches in the future. It will make a good second or third stage engine.

 

[Nikxice]

Can't help but note that this thread is 10 pages long and over two years old, started by the fact that BO went to the edge of Space and then successfully landed their booster back on earth. Since then, SpaceX has launched two dozen orbital vehicles, releasing numerous satellites and also resupplying the ISS. Some of those missions had no attempt planned for a first stage booster return. SpaceX has still had nineteen successful returns on either land or sea, with three of them using recycled boosters. Just a couple more numbers. BO was founded in 2000, SpaceX in 2002.

Glad BO is around to motivate the industry. They have almost infinite funding available and obvious engineering talent. It's likely that their tortoise and Elon's hare will eventual prove both companies can be winners. But for now, until BO gets up to 17,500 mph, they don't stack up against SpaceX. While the progress of Virgin Galactic is about as exciting as watching grass grow, BO might be closer to drying paint!