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Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by MitchJi, Dec 27, 2015.
BMW and Nissan are (Sort Of) Taking On Tesla Motors' Superchargers -- The Motley Fool
I'll be less cynical if the nearest Chademo/CCS station wasn't even further away than the nearest Supercharger.
BMW and Nissan are joining forces to offer public DC Fast charging
Note the careful use of "longer distance" instead of "long-distance".
I was a bit confused by this.
The verbiage at Nissan and BMW partner to deploy dual fast chargers across the U.S. to benefit electric vehicle drivers - Nissan Online Newsroom implies the 120 have already been deployed.
To steal a comment on a Facebook group about this: "6 per state? The future is here."
I guess for some states, if 6 are/were added, that's actually a huge improvement.
When reading that article I just remember this memorable quote from a 2014 ValueWalk interview:
Jacob Harb, head of electric vehicle sales and strategy for BMW North America said in an interview with AutoGuide that the network will include their “game changing” DC charger that will deliver an 80% charge in approximately 30 minutes. Electric vehicles from other brands will also be compatible with the network. Harp added that such chargers usually cost about $50,000 each and are similar to a household refrigerator in size. But BMW’s unit will cost just $6,500 and measures 24×17 inches.
Harb said that an official announcement will be made during the North American International Auto Show, adding that they want to set up those charging stations everywhere. Harb said, “I don’t think [Tesla is] going to be happy with how quickly these things roll out.” (Emphasis mine)
Cue laughter. Tesla now has ~244 superchargers in the US running at least 100 kw.
FWIW, the guy tracking at Tesla Supercharger Network - Page 115 - My Nissan Leaf Forum states that in the US, Tesla Superchargers cover 44 states, w/244 locations w/a total of 1,640 charging stalls.
The "game changer" is the low cost of the units, being the subsidized ~$6,500 to BMW dealers and qualifying partners. Other DC FCs are typically $15K+ to start with, for the charger only, not including anything else (e.g. installation).
But, none of these 50 kW dual port units are the above cheap 24 kW SAE Combo (Combo 1) only units.
Elon's secret plan continues to bear fruit. While this is well behind the SuperCharger network, it is a win for everyone to see manufacturers spending their own money to help build out infrastructure, well, everyone but Toyota who is still trying to foist fool cell infrastructure on the US taxpayer.
Which means they'll be at the dealer locations, which are often inconvenient compared to Supercharger locations, and probably only one or two stalls per dealer. It also means each dealer will have the say over who can and can't charge. I don't see how this will affect Tesla at all, other than promoting EVs in general.
Have they provided a map of where they intend to install these? I can't imagine 120 locations for a vehicle that gets 120 km to a charge is going to get very far.
The only map I've seen has a few lines between some major cities. They were "as the crow flies" lines.
It also means that the host dealer site must ensure that the charge station is outside of the dealership's security perimeter (when closed)...most dealer charging stations that I have seen are level II's, and would be inaccessible to folks wanting a charge after the dealership is closed...
24 kW CCS EVSE's are basically comparable to 80 amp HPWC's, so one has to add together the Tesla's Supercharger footprint with the destination charging program footprint.
Anyone really comparing what Nissan/BMW is doing as challenging Tesla in any way doesn't actually own a BEV and tried traveling on these networks. Using 50kw DC EVSE's they need to be installing at 4x Tesla's footprint in terms of locations. They also need to install at 4-8x on a plug basis.
Too many of these plugs are installed at dealerships and have dealership hours. Traffic jam causing a delay would often mean the inability to charge since the dealership closed. Travel on weekends and especially Sunday's are especially hard.
All of this indicates that BMW and Nissan are still playing around and haven't gotten serious about a BEV future.
As others point out, what matters is where they are installing them and how many at each location. If they are continuing the same strategy of installing one at a dealer then that does not really solve the infrastructure problem. They need stations that have more than one charger and can be used unattended. The stations also need to be maintained and fixed quickly when they break.
That's the biggest issue. Installing individual stations at locations does not scale at all. If they were at all serious, a minimum of 4 stall capable stations should be implemented from day 1, even if that means a much smaller 'network' initially.
From the Motley Fool article:
I looked for a while but I can't find a map of these stations online anywhere. Have I missed something?
The Nissan press release says they're "Greenlots-networked" -- amazingly, greenlots.com doesn't appear to have a map accessible to the public via the web. You have to download their app, but that experience is pretty terrible:
* it doesn't allow you to filter down to DCFC
* it doesn't allow you to filter locations down to Greenlots only
* it only shows stations within ~20 miles of your location
* panning and zooming won't adjust what stations are shown, you actually have to search each time
Based on the fact that the articles specify "public" charging locations, I'm cautiously optimistic they won't all be at dealerships, but right now there's just no way to know. I'm NOT optimistic about how many plugs will be at each location; I expect there will just be one CHAdeMO and one CCS.
Adding to the confusion is the fact that a different charging parnership involving BMW (and VW) was announced early this year (and I think discussed in other threads here):
BMW, VW ChargePoint to build EV fast-charging stations
Sadly, the only map I see for that partnership is the infographic in that article.
I'm left wondering how many more iterations we'll have to witness before someone implements a charging network that is (1) easy for EV drivers to use, (2) sufficiently widespread to allow EV drivers to go anywhere they want, (3) scalable when EVs become more popular, and (4) compatible with as many EVs as possible. Tesla is clearly far ahead of anyone else, and even their network still has significant flaws.
Except per press releases, they're not installing 24 kW CCS DC "FCs". They're installing/installed 50 kW dual-standard DC FCs. And, no BMW nor any SAE Combo equipped cars even have above a 7.2 kW OBC, so an 80 amp EVSE is no more helpful than a 30 amp one, for those cars.
I agree about the initial deployment of Nissan-branded CHAdeMO DC FCs. Many were at dealers, behind the secured area and thus totally inaccessible after the dealer closed.
- - - Updated - - -
Well, 2013-2015 and 2016 Leaf S trims in the US are EPA rated at 84 miles (135 km) on 100% charge. 2016 Leaf SV and SL have 30 kWh battery, up from 24 kWh, upping their EPA range rating to 107 miles (172 km).
But still - that's half of the Model S. They're still going to need the stations every (lets say) 50-60 miles / 80-90km or so. So since the stations will be packed closer together, they won't cover nearly the same geographic area as 120 Telsa SCs would.
Charging stations need to have the same number of stalls as petrol stations have for fossil cars. Where I am I think that is about 12-16 pn average.
For anyone with a Model S equipped with dual chargers, or a Model X with the 72A charger, the thousands of Tesla Destination chargers in the US are a huge benefit over what BMW and Nissan have announced. I love this "forgotten network". No lines, no waiting, and free. Many are at hotels, but some are at restaurants and other public locations (like a brand new mall near me). Up to 55 miles of range per hour, and best of all, you don't have to wait for a BMW i3 or a Leaf to unplug before you can use one. They are a great charging opportunity while you are eating lunch, or staying in a hotel, or shopping, etc. If you have a Model S without dual chargers, consider the upgrade to "dual", while you still have the option. And if you are buying a production Model X, inquire about how to upgrade from a 48A to 72A charger BEFORE you configure, because you can't do it later.