BMW and Tesla converse about share Supercharger network

[gavine]

I feel like I'm missing something in this whole discussion. We are all acting as if we can't drive without Superchargers. Are we forgetting that we charge in our garages and only need SCs for long road trips? I don't even have the SC option on my 60 and don't plan on ever needing it. Yes, everyone's situation is different, but I wonder how many cars at SCs are just there because it's free and they don't really need to charge. I'm sure there are owners lucky enough to live near SCs and charge free for their commute but do we really need SCs to be as omnipresent as gas stations? I don't think so.

 

[jerry33]

I feel like I'm missing something in this whole discussion. We are all acting as if we can't drive without Superchargers. Are we forgetting that we charge in our garages and only need SCs for long road trips? I don't even have the SC option on my 60 and don't plan on ever needing it. Yes, everyone's situation is different, but I wonder how many cars at SCs are just there because it's free and they don't really need to charge. I'm sure there are owners lucky enough to live near SCs and charge free for their commute but do we really need SCs to be as omnipresent as gas stations? I don't think so.

We don't, but BMW would because their car only goes a few miles. The last time I got close to zero, I was thinking that I was worried with 30 miles of range left, but if I had some other EV, I'd still have a 50% charge. Low range on the non-Tesla EVs is the number one enemy of EV adoption. I've never yet had a person not ask about how far I can go on a single charge.

 

[ecarfan]

Low range on the non-Tesla EVs is the number one enemy of EV adoption. I've never yet had a person not ask about how far I can go on a single charge.

Agreed. The primary obstacle to mass EV adoption is widespread availability of truly fast charging stations, like gas stations are today. There are just too many people living in situations where they do not have access to charging where they park near their residence.

I believe that a few decades from now in North America and Europe and China widespread rapid charging stations will be the reality. There will be "no fee" stations for cars where the selling price includes charging (like today's Tesla, other companies may adopt that model in the future) and there will be "fee" stations for other EVs. But high speed charging stations will be ubiquitous.

 

[Ugliest1]

Tesla is the tank leading the way, but it's going to take an army.

+1 What a great quote!!

However, given Nissan's focus on CHAdeMO (and having their own custom battery JV), I don't see them signing up for this scheme.

I'm going by memory here here so don't shoot me about the details. I think this was just after the superchargers were first announced, I remember either reading or seeing a video where Elon essentially said "We've developed this technology [i.e., separate from CHAdeMO, SAE etc] because we can't afford to wait for all the arguing to finish that everyone wants to do about standardization." I'm paraphrasing scandalously here, welcome to my memory.

I've seen many people since then (most often NOT on TMC) kind of lightly bitch about "Tesla's making up yet another standard, why can't everybody just get along". But besides the immediate benefit the supercharger infrastructure gives Model S owners and advances the marketing of the Secret Master Plan, the whole rationale about speed to implement and delays caused by standards negotiation between companies just resonated with me. My career was much about standards development for information management, and boy, do different people (sections, departments, subsidiaries, companies...) ever have different wish lists and never-ending suggestions and demands for change. It just takes forever. So I thought (think, believe) this was yet another master stroke of genius.

Recently the only standard I've developed is not using the brake until that last 3mph/5kph.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Regarding Nissan and partnering with Tesla, hopefully, Carlos Ghosn has changed his opinion since this interview from early 2012:

Open Dialogue: A Conversation With Nissan Global CEO Carlos Ghosn A with the leader of the $134 billion automaker (Lost in a Supermarket) | The Infiniti EV Insider

EV Insider:
How much do you think of Tesla?

Carlos Ghosn:
Tesla is different. I never considered that a small company can be a big player in EV and I’ll tell you why. Because if you have the choice between a big name and… what is a big name? It is a big network; it is making sure that if you live in a big city you have a dealer close by so if something goes wrong you can go there and get it fixed. If you go to a small company what is your network? What is your back-up? What is your next car coming. I think that at the end of the day this is a turf for large car manufacturers no matter what. I am talking about mass marketing. Not about a niche player. I am not talking about selling 1000 EVs a year. Like LEAF [sold] 25,000 the first year, 50,000 the second year and going up from there. We are talking about tens and hundreds of thousands of EVs a year. Frankly, I don’t think people will go to a niche manufacturer. They want the big names because they want the dealer network. Whether I am traveling, visiting, etc. I want to be able to call a dealer nearby. That’s my opinion of why they want to go to the big names.

 

[ecarfan]

To be fair to Ghosn, when he said those words Telsa had ended Roadster production at just 2,500 cars over 4 years and had not yet started producing the Model S, they had only shown prototypes. Few people could imagine then that the S would make such an impact and that a tiny company could build such an outstanding automobile or build out a high speed charging network so quickly. Few people, that is, except Elon and his management team.

Ghosn clearly believes in EVs but has failed to truly innovate, i.e. he has not pushed his engineers to build a long range EV that is a compelling car and that can replace an ICE. As I've said before, I think every major car manufacturer suffers from a fear of cannibalizing their existing ICE sales. Even Ghosn apparently only wants EVs to be short range city cars. He's had years now to produce a better EV but has yet to so. Yes there are rumors of a new longer range Leaf next year. If it happens I bet it won't have a range greater than 120 miles but Nissan will market it as if it's a miracle vehicle, and it still won't charge anywhere near the speed of a Model S. And if it happens it will be because of what Tesla has already shown can be done with an EV.

 

[Jack6591]

Financial Times | Error | Akamai Error

the Financial Times is reporting that Nissan wants to join the conversation. I'm going out on limb, and predicting GM will join this effort. What better way to divert attention from their current quagmire.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Thanks, Jack. Nissan's participation would be great to see. Regarding the Big Three, Chrysler/Fiat may end up being the least interested given Fiat's head's comments recently about his own 500e. Ford and GM would be welcomed by Tesla to get under the big tent as that'd be a big vote of confidence for many American car buyers.

 

[Tharo]

If the big builders do not want to participate, there is another possibility for people to use superchargers: people engaging the services individually with Tesla, change the plug of his car and the software and Tesla gives them access to his network for an annual fee as the owners of Model S.

 

[sbronle1]

I agree. I am asked that same question all of the time. Most people can't believe the answer. Other frequently asked questions are "What is a Tesla?" and "is that made in Germany or Japan?"
When their jaws drop with my response I have a hard time not telling the entire Tesla story.

We don't, but BMW would because their car only goes a few miles. The last time I got close to zero, I was thinking that I was worried with 30 miles of range left, but if I had some other EV, I'd still have a 50% charge. Low range on the non-Tesla EVs is the number one enemy of EV adoption. I've never yet had a person not ask about how far I can go on a single charge.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like I'm missing something in this whole discussion. We are all acting as if we can't drive without Superchargers. Are we forgetting that we charge in our garages and only need SCs for long road trips? I don't even have the SC option on my 60 and don't plan on ever needing it. Yes, everyone's situation is different, but I wonder how many cars at SCs are just there because it's free and they don't really need to charge. I'm sure there are owners lucky enough to live near SCs and charge free for their commute but do we really need SCs to be as omnipresent as gas stations? I don't think so.

I have to agree. I live in Tampa and plan a drive down to Key Largo in a few weeks. SC in Ft Myers is 154 miles. No problemo. Then 174 miles to Key Largo. Resort has chargers like my garage. Return trip again No Problemo! For any trips over 300-400 miles, I choose alternative transportation Like my wife's ICE car or that other thing with wings. Superchargers are a convenience, not a necessity for the majority of us.

- - - Updated - - -

+1 What a great quote!!


I'm going by memory here here so don't shoot me about the details. I think this was just after the superchargers were first announced, I remember either reading or seeing a video where Elon essentially said "We've developed this technology [i.e., separate from CHAdeMO, SAE etc] because we can't afford to wait for all the arguing to finish that everyone wants to do about standardization." I'm paraphrasing scandalously here, welcome to my memory.

I've seen many people since then (most often NOT on TMC) kind of lightly bitch about "Tesla's making up yet another standard, why can't everybody just get along". But besides the immediate benefit the supercharger infrastructure gives Model S owners and advances the marketing of the Secret Master Plan, the whole rationale about speed to implement and delays caused by standards negotiation between companies just resonated with me. My career was much about standards development for information management, and boy, do different people (sections, departments, subsidiaries, companies...) ever have different wish lists and never-ending suggestions and demands for change. It just takes forever. So I thought (think, believe) this was yet another master stroke of genius.

Recently the only standard I've developed is not using the brake until that last 3mph/5kph.

Now what are "brakes"again??? Oh now I remember... I used them on my last car.

 

[larryep]

I feel like I'm missing something in this whole discussion. We are all acting as if we can't drive without Superchargers. Are we forgetting that we charge in our garages and only need SCs for long road trips? I don't even have the SC option on my 60 and don't plan on ever needing it. Yes, everyone's situation is different, but I wonder how many cars at SCs are just there because it's free and they don't really need to charge. I'm sure there are owners lucky enough to live near SCs and charge free for their commute but do we really need SCs to be as omnipresent as gas stations? I don't think so.

+1
my nema 14-50 can do 29 miles every hour with a mobile tesla charger. the clipper creek charger that is plugged to that nema socket does about 16 miles every hour to my leaf. plenty of miles needed for most folks.

 

[David99]

Looks like Nissan is interested as well! It gets better!

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-tesla-bmw-electric-car-charging-talks-report

 

[dsm363]

Would the CHAdeMO stations be left in place? Would be interesting for Nissan to get in on the game. The handle on the Supercharger alone is simply a better design.

 

[Tharo]

More details:

Behind The Scenes: Tesla Meeting With BMW

 

[Modelxvin1365]

Would the CHAdeMO stations be left in place? Would be interesting for Nissan to get in on the game. The handle on the Supercharger alone is simply a better design.

Chademo stations will more than likely become supercharger sites considering that the investment in capital expenditures and labor have already been paid. The current electrical Equipment Upgrade is necessary the superchargers consume over 70 kw + more power. The current rate of sales for tesla Motors leaves me the conclusion that Tesla will overtake Nissans 25,000+ Evs( even when accounting for nissan leaf forecasted sales) being sold in the united States by Q2 2015. Being the largest Ev Manufacturer will have its perks. Chademo at its current design max is 62 Kw and the largest applications we now see in the United States is 50 kw. I am very optimistic that these "soon to be former chademo stations" will be "Convenience locations" for demographics in which cannot guarantee dedicated charging nightly. Adapters will have to be given for those who previously had the option of plugging in with chademo now use a supercharger to chademo adapter :biggrin:

 

[PhilBa]

Well, no matter whether you are for or against opening up the SC Network to other cars, I think this will either not happen or play out over a very long period of time. Why would the Nissan change their connector any time soon? Why would BMW? Would tesla add chademo or J1772 connectors to the SCs? Kind of doubt it. There might be adapters but those will not be cheap (relative the to cost of the car) and, with the cost of signing up to the network, I suspect that few owners of the current crop of short range EVs will sign up. $2500 = about 20MWH (@$.12/Kwh). This works out to >60K miles. Unless you have an SC in your back yard, it's likely to be a losing proposition.

I just don't see a massive convergence. Stranger things have happened though...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Well, no matter whether you are for or against opening up the SC Network to other cars, I think this will either not happen or play out over a very long period of time. Why would the Nissan change their connector any time soon? Why would BMW? Would tesla add chademo or J1772 connectors to the SCs? Kind of doubt it. There might be adapters but those will not be cheap (relative the to cost of the car) and, with the cost of signing up to the network, I suspect that few owners of the current crop of short range EVs will sign up. $2500 = about 20MWH (@$.12/Kwh). This works out to >60K miles. Unless you have an SC in your back yard, it's likely to be a losing proposition.

I just don't see a massive convergence. Stranger things have happened though...

Depends what you mean by "a very long period of time". To me it would be as soon as they build a car that can handle it, which, realistically, would mean a longer-range BEV. Nissan's already thinking of a longer-range BEV in the next generation and if BMW has been testing the Model S charging I'd suspect that they're thinking about it too. If they're truly open, I'd suggest that there could be something else using it on the road by 2020.