BMW folks comments on Tesla

[drunkenbuda]

Having the smartest car in the world feels luxury to me.

 

[ForDesign]

I always get a loaner from my BMW dealers, but dealership experience will vary. Experience varies even with Tesla.

Many other brands offer phone key and app integration now. It’s nothing unique or special to Tesla. Other manufacturers EV apps even offer more flexibility and granular control in terms of charge and precondition scheduling compared to just “Weekdays” or “All Week” that Tesla offers. I personally prefer a regular key fob over a Bluetooth phone key because traditional keyless systems can actually detect whether the key fob is in the car. In my Tesla I can set my phone on my shoe rack in front of the car and still start the car and drive off. That’s not secure.

The BMW i4 M50 I drove as part of BMW’s ultimate driving experience offered better steering feel and feedback vs my Model 3. Much more confidence inspiring steering and suspension.

Throttle and brake mapping have not been an issue in any other EVs I’ve driven or seen reviews of so don’t know what you’re talking about there. Most everyone else uses blended braking which is superior to Teslas brake approach where all brake pedal application will use friction brakes instead of increasing regen.

Once again you are correct, experience varies, but Tesla has undoubtably steam lined the car buying experience beyond what a traditional (i.e., franchised) dealership can offer. As I stated, some consumers might not want that experience. You are welcome to project and tell us that you know what is good for every consumer-I do not have that expertise or ability, but you can expand on how you have gained such knowledge.

Would you mind listing that list of 'many/ manufacturers? My firm has field tested 18 other apps from manufacturers and none so far have worked as seamlessly-no lag, no 'tricks' in visualizations etc to make functions seem fast-I mean timed app presses on both the vehicles touch screen and the app. The graphics on the BMW screen feels crude graphically and is slower per timed tests.

Your preferences, as I've said before, are noted. I can drive off without a key in my EV Polestar P2, for background, and a number of other ICE products I have in for testing, for background when paired with an app; or even in the case of a Golf R, a family member can have the keys and get out out of a running car and I can drive away.

The electronic modules and chipsets used in the M4 is almost half the cost of the Tesla via a internal teardown ours and other companies conducted. If you think there is as much processing capability in an a comparable BMW product, there are a simple series of stopwatch/benchmarking stress tests you are free to perform on your own.

I'm not sure why you are merging 'steering' and 'suspension' here. I specifically stated steering feel for an engineering led reason. Again, there are many reviews that point to the preference of the Model 3/Y starring system to most modern BMWs, i4 included.

What I'm talking about is preference. I specifically stated the industries thoughts on pedal feel and power delivery. Some prefer the R/C car jumpiness of Teslas-some prefer the more ICE like delivery of the power system of the BMW system. Again this is something easily searchable online if you want to plead ignorance of the facts; that doesn't mean it's not a reality.

Some consumers are again, more privy to the Tesla regeneration system (again, a separate issue-you seem to be seeking 'praise' or 'points' for a companies products-I'm saying there is no one right path to product design-as we are all different-again you are welcome to debate that specific point vs. conflicting arguments regarding products).

I have posted a few reviews for refrence; while again there is bias in many reviews, the variety and backgrounds of each reviewer can provide more clarity vs your default argument-which seems to be the world needs to all drive BMWs-which is clearly biased.

 

[ForDesign]

Here are three different specific tests comparing a BMW vs a Tesla, from all different regions. Per these reviews, the BMW is a far more 'luxury' experience from a traditional POV (suspension, isolation), but the findings across the board is that the Tesla is a better 'traditional/tech' drivers centered car (steering feel, throttle mapping, alblity to rotate under power, handling balance)-especially when you adjust the bias via track mode in the case of the Model 3 Performance. Again most of these reviews touched on throttle feel and brake feel-not a overwhelming preference for either, but most preferred the Tesla. Again, much of what I stated in the beginning of my participation in this discussion. None of this changes the fact that for some the BMW is a great alternative (Traditional luxury tappings, more busy ride, plastic polymers, build integrity/panel gap integrity). But for others, the Tesla will be preferred. Oh and there seems to be a bit more passenger space and sigh lines in the Tesla, which again, might be something of note for a lot of consumers.

Such is the beauty of choice.

 

[MrDoc]

Interesting discussion..
I just moved from 2016 X3 to MX. Here is my opinion:
X3 drove great, felt comfortable, and was reliable. My biggest reason to move away was the dealership experience. I always serviced it at the dealership and exactly after 5 years of car life, every time I took it in for service such as an oil change, they wanted me to do a "needed repair", usually costing between 1500 to 2000$. EVERY SINGLE TIME!
Comparing the two a week later, I believe driving experience with BMW and tesla in terms of comfort is quite comparable. Tesla excels at simplicity. The technology at Tesla wows (yes I know I am comparing x3 to MX, and yes it's not the same as comparing x7 to MX and not the same as comparing 2023 X7 to MX).
Whether it was the dealership trying to get money out of me, or the car actually needing those repairs (I will never know which one was true!). Either way, I will not want to own a BMW again unless I was looking to keep it for 3 years or less!

 

[mrbulk]

TL;DR:

To me, "luxury" simply means ease and convenience.

In the not-too-distant past it used to mean steering with your fingertips rather than having to manually crank the wheel with both hands, gliding the windows up and down at the touch of a button, a high fidelity stereo with multiple speakers instead of an AM radio, being cooled down when it's warm out and vice versa, power brakes, auto open/close trunk or lift gate, etc.

But today almost every modern car has these things and more, so instead "luxury" to me now means dropping my shoulders as I relax when Autopilot comes on, enabling me to scroll through my texts (shhhh...) or take in the scenery and a more lingering glance at the pretty lady in the next car, binge watching Breaking Bad while parked inside my garage on a warm summer day, a/c on full blast with no fear of carbon monoxide, spending my time doing preferred activities instead of taking the car in ("luxury" or not) for maintenance because there pretty much is none, being home yet still receiving brand new features and upgrades over the air, having "recalls" performed while my Tesla is in the garage and my body is in the La-Z-Boy...

I'm sure there are more examples of this new type of truly supreme "luxury", but I think most get the point.

Luxury has been redefined.

*EDIT: oh yeah one more thing, having a car this good can inspire one to even write a Tesla song:

 

[glide]

Have you looked in the "frunk" of the i7? Appalling, particularly coming from a luxury brand.

No. But in fairness, I haven’t looked in the trunk of my Model S either. It’s just not useful to me in any meaningful way.

 

[glide]

Tesla vehicles have never been sold as luxary vehicles. Tesla is not a "luxary brand". But 670 ponies on a base, non-luxary vehicle is a nice cherry on top.

Tell that to all the forum members touting Tesla’s ranking in the “luxury” sales market.

They are a luxury brand when it suits the narrative.

 

[bmah]

Tell that to all the forum members touting Tesla’s ranking in the “luxury” sales market.

They are a luxury brand when it suits the narrative.

I'd invite you to critique cars, but not fellow forum members.

Thanks,

Bruce.

 

[CTruck_BMW]

Well, I certainly learned a lot hearing from everyone here. Thanks a lot, all opinions were equally as important and useful to me.

I'd say that one thing I noticed that "some" current Tesla owners are a bit unaware of what has happened in the past 1-2 years with other brands. What used to be a unique technology feature for Tesla only, is no longer unique as most other brands have already adopted the same or excelled further on it.

Some arguments (and I quote a few of them) are below:

• "footage after an accident": Both of my former BMWs (I no longer own them) had that since 2020; and they also helped once to record 20 sec before and 20 sec after the accident AUTOMATICALLY (model year: 2020). For Model year 2023, it has even gotten better in recording suspicions activities/events. It is also continuously recording if you set it up that way.
• "Phone key": Yes, most other brands have some form of a lag or so, but since 2022+, BMW and Mercedes offer true Phone as a Key that is as good as Tesla implementation. No need to bring the phone close to the handle at all.
• "Buying a car in 15-min vs hour": Both local Mbenz and BMW dealers near me offer 5-min e-signature process (including off-site paper processing). You arrive, pick up the car and leave. I bought my recent S-class that way (5-min of e-signatures) with single person + iPad. My walkaround took longer than paper signings.
• "OTA update integration": My former 2019 BMW X7 used to get at leat one OTA update every 3 months, and each update was reasonably useful. 2023 model years with the new iDrive are even better in that. So that is not a unique "selling" point anymore.
• "precondition scheduling": My former BMWs and current Mbenz offer better preconditioning schedule that my experience with Tesla rental for a few hours. Compared to just “Weekdays” or “All Week”, I can schedule it to start any time, any hour, any minute and any day of the year just as good as you can schedule meetings via Teams or Outlook. ALSO: steering and cooled seats with automatically work based on ambient conditions (heating or cooling).
• "autonomous driving": I don't see a difference at all between the (up to 85 MPG) full hands free driving in the new 7-series and now the new X7 on highways. it is true full hands-free and formally released as such in 2022-2023+. As for in-town, I never use auto-pilot or drive assist. I agree that tesla system is still better though but again for in-town city driving I don't use it anyway.
• "Auto garage opener": My $7 bucks module with free software does that automatically each time my phone GPS indicates that am around the driveway. My VIVINT security system also offers that for zero cost monthly with a simple garage door opener module. I don't see as something even worth mentioning or like a determining factor when buying a car. It's like arguing that the car comes with nice soft floor mats as a selling point.

Let me explain my view and I hope nobody would take that personally (I am her just sharing conclusions which may or may not match yours):
Now aside for all these, my main motivation to get a Tesla as an in-town drive remains solid given the feedback here. I wanted a vehicle that is simple enough so I won't worry much about maintenance, I wanted something that is reliable, and also efficient. This is what Tesla offers for now for kids/parks/in-town daily drive. As for highway long trips, Tesla is short on every single feature a family need in a vehicle (autonomous driving is no longer anything special), but rather the true comfortable executive-like seats with massage function, rear seat entertainment, rear seat massage, front seat massage, headup display and the lack of range anxiety knowing I can drive 6-8 hours for our monthly long trip non-stop beside 5-min refuel and bio-brakes is invaluable to me; plus finally the anti-glare anti-dazzle headlights that I must have for the 2-hrs part of the 6-8 hrs monthly trip. Those are to me are basics and fundamentals that the ultimate car must have. I will also miss the 3D Surround system (3D Burmester or B&W that Tesla don't offer any replacment for, which we enjoy on long trips). Finally, I can ever accept stopping for 30 min or more twice during that trip. The feedback I see here confirms though that Model Y (or Model X) seems to be a good fit for a family in-town daily drive though. I don't see anything that competes with Model Y price wise; but for Model X or S, seems like there are many better vehicles (i.e. it also can be used as luxury while also offering same advantages being an EV or at least PHEV). I might need to go with Model Y and rent it for a week, and if my budget goes up, I'll be considering other luxury brands EV. I don't care much about maintenance (if a car need service, let it go for service, I get a loaner "never had long-term issues with any of my low mileage luxury cars").

Sorry for any typos! I type so fast and I hope u don't mind that I didn't carefully re-read my write-up.

 

[SO16]

For highway long trips? No way ever I would consider Tesla. Tesla for me is a consideration for in-town short-medium trips/driving only.

Interesting. I do more long road trips now in my 2017 Tesla Model S than I ever did in any gas car I owned. Just last summer, drove to Nova Scotia and then another trip through Montana, CO and WY. Year before that, to GA and the east coast all from MI. In a couple months, taking the Trans Canada highway from MI to Vancouver CA and then back through the US. I find road tripping much more enjoyable in my Tesla because I find the car relaxing, the AP and the Tesla charging stops work well with when I’m ready for a break anyway.

It can take a bit of planning if you get a ways from the supercharger network but can usually find L2 charging at hotels, etc as well. This is getting easier too as more chargers come online. Probably only about 5% of the time does it take “more effort”.

But for people who prefer cannonball run style road trips, or travel a long distance from any decent charging, then an EV is not for them.

 

[ucmndd]

I watched MKBHD’s review today of the iX. Seems like a hot mess of an overall user experience.

This is where traditional “luxury” makes are gonna have a real hard time. They think people want crystal shift knobs and that we’ll excuse crappy haptic buttons for critical controls on the center console so long as they’re underlaid in some nice looking open grain wood. Not to mention the gimmicky hand gesture controls and decidedly German UI choices.

And while looks are subjective, I’ve gotta side with him on it being a fugly train wreck of beaver teeth and odd angles.

Not that Tesla has the market cornered on beauty… I think the S is a subjectively and objectively beautiful car, but 3/X/Y do absolutely nothing for me.

 

[ForDesign]

Again, ‘quickly reading’ through something can cause you to miss key elements:

All dealers operate differently. Everyone will have a different approach an sales model. So the ‘ahh ha’ moment of pushing your personal experience doesn’t quite hit here; again your experiences do not reflect all of the varying profit model dealerships. Some might transact a sale in 15 minutes, some have been over an hour.

You can ‘record 20 seconds of footage’ in a BMW. I wasn’t aware that it was included in al BMWs; I do believe it’s an upcharge.

Once again, I did touch on the UX examples/advantages as well which I suspect have been selectively ignored. Again, for certain people, both products will have preferences. I’m not sure searching for ‘counterpoints’ to look for a resounding advantage for any modern mainstream automotive product is anything but an exercise in corporate branding cheerleading. There are advantages/drawbacks to any product.

 

[dannycamps]

I watched MKBHD’s review today of the iX. Seems like a hot mess of an overall user experience.

That wood grain center console with the capacitive/haptic buttons on it is a disaster waiting to happen. You have to take your eyes completely off the road to locate those controls and use them.

 

[E90alex]

That wood grain center console with the capacitive/haptic buttons on it is a disaster waiting to happen. You have to take your eyes completely off the road to locate those controls and use them.

Just like you have to look away from the road to use the Teslas touchscreen…

You can easily use the iX center console buttons without looking after you memorize the layout. It never moves or changes like buttons on a touchscreen. The knob serves as a central starting point and you know the approximate relative location of each button. There’s roughly one for where each finger lands when resting your hand around the dial. The text is embossed so there is still enough tactile feedback that you can feel when your finger is directly on top of the button.

But you can also just as well use the touch screen instead if you prefer that, which higher up and more within line of sight than Teslas.

Also the trims without the crystal control option has little ridges to separate each button and help with tactile feedback and positioning without looking.

 

[ucmndd]

Just like you have to look away from the road to use the Teslas touchscreen…

I think capacitive/haptic controls in a car are pretty much universally terrible but there’s really no comparing a high dash-mounted screen with fake “buttons” buried at waist level.

Honestly the fake console buttons are just the most visible and tactile representation of the underlying problem. The entire UI/UX seems to be the typical German dumpster fire.

 

[E90alex]

I think capacitive/haptic controls in a car are pretty much universally terrible but there’s really no comparing a high dash-mounted screen with fake “buttons” buried at waist level.

Honestly the fake console buttons are just the most visible and tactile representation of the underlying problem. The entire UI/UX seems to be the typical German dumpster fire.

Did you not read the rest of my post? It’s a non issue because there’s plenty of tactile feedback to use without looking.

Meanwhile the bottom of my Model 3 screen where a lot of the buttons are is damn near by my knees.

 

[ForDesign]

Just like you have to look away from the road to use the Teslas touchscreen…

You can easily use the iX center console buttons without looking after you memorize the layout. It never moves or changes like buttons on a touchscreen. The knob serves as a central starting point and you know the approximate relative location of each button. There’s roughly one for where each finger lands when resting your hand around the dial. The text is embossed so there is still enough tactile feedback that you can feel when your finger is directly on top of the button.

But you can also just as well use the touch screen instead if you prefer that, which higher up and more within line of sight than Teslas.

Also the trims without the crystal control option has little ridges to separate each button and help with tactile feedback and positioning without looking.

So there is really allowance for preference in your retorts it seems? The point still stands that certain ergonomic functions will differ from some companies to the next.

Consumers as a whole are experiencing a lack of buttons in their everyday CE devices. Again I’m not sure if ‘well this has that too’ is addressing the intended inference (‘it’s better’).

Again can’t one just have a preference?

 

[bobbyjae]

Tesla is definitely not a luxury vehicle.

That being said, the BMW X series has been losing its way over the years. Lots of bad decisions including a softer steering, cheapening of trim, floaty suspension, etc. We like our X5 45e but alternatives are catching up.

 

[zoomer0056]

Tell that to all the forum members touting Tesla’s ranking in the “luxury” sales market.

They are a luxury brand when it suits the narrative.

When looking for a replacement for my corvette, the word luxary never came to mind. It's not a label I've ever used. I bought my Feb 2022 MSLR because it was the best car for me. I had to look it up, is Tesla a Luxury car?

Google says Tesla is a luxary brand.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Not most Americans, if 9 of 10 teenagers have one.

Cheapest iPhone is $429 new, retail. Only the flagships are $800+.
But a lot of phones are pushed with contracts and who knows what the net price is.