BMW i

daniel · Mar 28, 2012

dpeilow said:
Instead, BMW believes that its packs will still have 85 percent of their stated capacity after the car's lifespan is complete, making the power sources valuable on the used market to power companies. Interesting, no?

Click to expand...

This sounds like exaggerated hype to me. I am far more optimistic about battery life than a lot of people, but with other car makers estimating 80% after seven years or so, and cars' "lifespan" nowadays expected to be well over a hundred thousand miles, The above statement looks to me like they're just trying to counter a common fear about electric cars, that you'll have to replace an expensive battery in just a few years.

I would ask them if they are willing to warranty the battery capacity (as no other EV maker has done) rather than just warranty defects, as all other EV makers do.

dpeilow · Mar 28, 2012

That's not true. Vauxhall warrants that you will have 80% at 8 years or the new battery is on them.

Renault will replace your leased battery if it goes below 80% too.

JRP3 · Mar 28, 2012

It's also dependent on the actual battery chemistry that is being used. I don't know what BMW is using but there are chemistries that are quite capable of meeting their claimed specs.

stopcrazypp · Mar 28, 2012

dpeilow said:
That's not true. Vauxhall warrants that you will have 80% at 8 years or the new battery is on them.

Renault will replace your leased battery if it goes below 80% too.

Do you actually have a copy of the service and warranty booklet for the Ampera and seen the actual wording? I know that PR sometimes says one thing and the actually warranty terms says something different.

I found the warranty for the Volt. There is no protection for the capacity, but it mentions this on page 14:

Propulsion Battery Warranty Policy
Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high voltage “propulsion” battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 30% of capacity over the warranty period. A dealer service technician will determine if the battery energy capacity (kWh storage) is within the proper limit, given the age and mileage of the vehicle. Typical tests can take up to 24 hours.

Also if even if they determine that they should give you a replacement, it will only have the capacity that the battery had before it "failed", not the capacity a new battery would have (page 15):

Under warranty, the high voltage battery will be replaced with either a new or factory reconditioned high voltage battery with an energy capacity (kWh storage) level at or above that of the original battery prior to the failure.

http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/owners/manuals/2011/2011_chevrolet_volt_warranty.pdf

So like Tesla, I think GM expects about 70% capacity within the warranty period, but GM doesn't explicitly have to replace your battery even if it hits below that (since the "service technician" is the one who determines if the battery needs replacement).

tommolog · Mar 29, 2012

JRP3 said:
It's also dependent on the actual battery chemistry that is being used. I don't know what BMW is using but there are chemistries that are quite capable of meeting their claimed specs.

BMW is using newly developed lithium-ion cells which are a nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry made by SB-LiMotive. SB-LiMotive is a joint venture of Samsung and Bosch: SB LiMotive: Home

I still think 85% sounds pretty optimistic.

JRP3 · Mar 29, 2012

Yes that's a little ambitious for NMC, but maybe they've made advances. Or maybe they are holding more of the pack in reserve.

tommolog · Mar 29, 2012

JRP3 said:
Yes that's a little ambitious for NMC, but maybe they've made advances. Or maybe they are holding more of the pack in reserve.

Perhaps on the i3 & i8, but they aren't on the ActiveE. We have 28 usable out of the 32kWh total. However these are short use cars and most wont drive more than 50k. I plan to give mine back after the two years with 65k +. Already have 7,000 miles in under 3 months. The unlimited miles on these cars make them really cheap for those that drive a lot. - Especailly when you have solar

JRP3 · Mar 29, 2012

Since the 8 is a hybrid they have to keep more in reserve since whatever they allow use of will most likely be fully utilized each day. The 3 with the larger pack will be shallow cycled in most normal use.

tommolog · Mar 30, 2012

JRP3 said:
Since the 8 is a hybrid they have to keep more in reserve since whatever they allow use of will most likely be fully utilized each day. The 3 with the larger pack will be shallow cycled in most normal use.

Yep. I should have been clear, I was referring to the i3. Love the i8, but not at $140- 160k. I could have an i3 as my commuter and a model S 300 as the family car for 140k.(Which I may very well have by 2015!)

dpeilow · Mar 30, 2012

The Vauxhall warranty is different to Chevrolet's, even in the UK I believe.

I have that statement directly from Vauxhall's 'Manager for environmental strategy and Ampera'.

daniel · Mar 31, 2012

dpeilow said:
That's not true. Vauxhall warrants that you will have 80% at 8 years or the new battery is on them.

Renault will replace your leased battery if it goes below 80% too.

That's mighty nice. It's the first I've heard of any EV maker offering such a warranty. Hopefully, it will set a precedent that will become the norm. But I'm not holding my breath.

stopcrazypp · Mar 31, 2012

dpeilow said:
The Vauxhall warranty is different to Chevrolet's, even in the UK I believe.

I have that statement directly from Vauxhall's 'Manager for environmental strategy and Ampera'.

Eh, I'll wait until I can find a copy of the warranty booklet (right now I only found a copy of the owners manual online).

Again PR statements are not completely reliable (like how the Nissan PR says the Leaf will "never" reach zero charge, but when you read their manual they have a specific provision that voids the battery warranty from being at or near zero charge for more than 14 days).

dpeilow · Apr 1, 2012

Well, it was over a cup of coffee with him looking me in the eye, if that helps...

Larry Chanin · Apr 2, 2012

BMW i8 Concept Spyder will drop its top at the New York Auto Show

BMW is moving ahead with its plans to electrify the driving experience. The company has already shown the i3 city car and i8 sports car numerous times, and both are headed for production. To keep the spotlight on these futuristic automobiles, BMW will unveil a convertible version of the i8, the i8 Concept Spyder, at the New York Auto Show.