BMW i3

[AustinPowers]

It was an american that made that quote, so using the european prices isn't exactly fair.

Model S Base price: $69,900
BMW i3 base price: $41,350

Mercedes S class base price: $92,350
Golf base price: $18,095

Not even remotely close to the same price relation. If you compare the i3 with the range extender (which I bet most people will get, since it's really the only distinguishing feature of the car) against the Model S, then the Model S is only 50% more expensive in the US, not twice as expensive. (although taking tax credit into account it's more like 2/3 more expensive). The point though isn't that the Model S is in a different class, it's that BMW has shown no indication they will be able to remotely compete against a future Gen 3, which will have similar styling.

But I am living in Europe so I have to compare European prices. And as almost no one buys a base model, I was using prices for adequately equipped (not fully mind you) cars. Ok, I don't know the prices of the i3 options, but I know the option prices of other BMW models quite well, so I came up with this equation:

i3: 40K Euro (taking a base price of around 35K and adding some options this seems realistic to me)
Model S: 95K Euro (that is an 85 with some options, but standard color, standard interior, standard wheels, no pano, no child seats, no lighting or security package, no center console insert)

Golf: 35K Euro (that is a Comfortline (the "middle" line) TDI with the smaller of the 2.0 engines and, again, some options, but no leather or fancy assistants. with more options, a Highline package and bigger engine one can easily configure a Golf that comes in at more than 50K Euro!)
S-Class: 90K Euro (that is an S 350 BlueTEC Diesel with some options, again with more options and bigger engine one can easily get that price to skyrocket like with the Golf, but that is German carmakers for you ;-) )

Oh and by god, let's hope that the Gen III styling will be nothing like the i3!

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

This article makes a fair statement that there's maybe a larger extent of "purchase overlap" with EV buyers than otherwise:

BMW i3 vs. Tesla Model S: The Ultimate Comparison | TheStreet

With so relatively few plug-in electric cars in the market, it's not a major exaggeration to say that in many cases they all compete against each other -- from those that cost under $30,000 to those that cost over $90,000. That, of course, never happens with "regular" gasoline/diesel cars.

Let me explain: I have seen plenty of examples of people who, one or two years ago, bought a Nissan LEAF or Chevrolet Volt, but previously only purchased much more expensive cars --$100,000 and up. Likewise, more recently I have seen plenty of examples of people paying $100,000 for a Tesla where they had never previously thought of buying a car that's over $30,000.

 

[gregincal]

This article makes a fair statement that there's maybe a larger extent of "purchase overlap" with EV buyers than otherwise:

BMW i3 vs. Tesla Model S: The Ultimate Comparison | TheStreet

That's definitely true, and I'm one whose previous most expensive car was 25k. I also never previously bought a car larger than a BMW 3 series and my last car was an Audi A3 (both purchased used), so if a smaller cheaper EV met my range and performance needs than I might never have considered the Model S. However, I don't really see how the i3 changes the equation that much. It's not like it's substantially different from the other EV offerings out there. Like I said in a previous post, I might have chosen the i3 above the other EV offerings, but the factors involved in choosing whether to buy a Model S or "one of the others" remains unchanged.

 

[gameon]

This article makes a fair statement that there's maybe a larger extent of "purchase overlap" with EV buyers than otherwise:

BMW i3 vs. Tesla Model S: The Ultimate Comparison | TheStreet

First fair review after reading bunch of tesla come from heaven kind of articles or some articles trash tesla out right...

 

[ModelS8794]

Likewise, more recently I have seen plenty of examples of people paying $100,000 for a Tesla where they had never previously thought of buying a car that's over $30,000.

This article makes the mistaken assumption that those of us buying a Model S who never previously bought a luxury car before are doing it because Model S is an EV. I didn't buy MS because it's an EV, I bought is cause it's an amazing car and worth the enormous splurge in a way no other car before has been worth it. Part of what makes it amazing is the advantages tesla brought to bear using EV drivetrain, but this article is mistaking cause (EV) for effect (awesomeness). People pay $100 grand for "awesome". They won't pay it for "EV". And that's why comparing i3 and MS is still as silly as comparing a 1-series and a 7-series.

If i3 turns out to be a great car, then people will buy it, and perhaps a bunch of people who wanted a MS will go for an i3. But "good enough... for an electric" won't be a competitive threat to MS anymore than it will be a competitive threat to the 1-series or 3-series that prospective BMW buyer will see when they walk into the showroom.

 

[Ludus]

I think the i3 is an excellent example of the competition having structural barriers to responding to directly to Tesla. Rather than being an example of serious competition emerging for the model S from the talented, well funded companies Tesla has been poaching customers from, the i3 is exactly the opposite. It's an econobox with sluggish performance and an 80 mile range. Like the Nissan leaf it's only selling point is that it's an electric car. If BMW tried to sell an IC car with the i3's performance they'd be the butt of jokes and stockholders would abbandon ship.

The one important feature of the i3 is that it doesn't cannibalize sales from BMW's regular product line....which any product that was actually competitive with Tesla would necessarily do. BMW illustrates the helpless position of the existing auto industry vs. Tesla. If they make products that go head to head with Tesla the main initial effect will be to steal sales from their own most profitable existing products. The division that makes these new products will absorb capital from the rest of the company earned from the sales of IC vehicles but the engineers and technicians from the old product lines won't find much need for their skills in the new electricvehicle side of the business. There is no constituency for making this risky and costly gamble. These are fat happy prosperous companies that have good reason to not produce products that genuinely compete with Tesla until Tesla is much bigger than it is now.

 

[AustinPowers]

Likewise, more recently I have seen plenty of examples of people paying $100,000 for a Tesla where they had never previously thought of buying a car that's over $30,000.

Then again, many people (at least over here) who are in the range for normally buying a 30K Euro car still won't even consider buying a Model S for 80K to 100K Euro, because it just isn't in their budget. I'm always amazed at how some people here say "I have never bought a car that cost more than 25K Dollars but now I got me a Model S". These people must have bought those cheap cars only because they didn't want to buy more expensive cars. I mean the price difference is huge! You normally don't have that much money just lying around - or easily available. From what I experienced, over here people who only buy cheap cars do it because they have to (small budget). People who have the funds tend to buy expensive cars, because cars after all also represent social status. That is not to say that such people might not buy a cheap car as well - as secondary or tertiary mode of transportation (or for the kids), but in general, someone who has only bought small cars up to now will not even have the ability to afford a Model S. And banks won't hand such a person 80K to 100K Euro to buy a car that is way out of their league. (Even more so at times like these).

...the i3 is exactly the opposite. It's an econobox with sluggish performance and an 80 mile range. Like the Nissan leaf it's only selling point is that it's an electric car.

The one important feature of the i3 is that it doesn't cannibalize sales from BMW's regular product line....

True on the second point to an extent, but as far as Mini (which I am sure everybody knows is also BMW) is concerned, the i3 could in fact cannibalize some of its sales (and especially those of the Mini EV, which is in almost exactly the same market as the i3).

On the first point, the selling point of the i3 is not just that it is an EV, that might be its main selling point. But the other important selling point is that it is a great city vehicle, something the Model S definitely is not. When I think of our cities, their parking spaces, size of parking garages, narrow and cramped roads etc., I think the i3 will - to many people - seem a far more attractive proposition than a behemoth like the Model S.

 

[surfingslovak]

Moteur Nature published a video interview, where Benoit Jacob, Head of BMWi Design, discusses the exterior design of the i3:

Click to open

 

[GSP]

If BMW tried to sell an IC car with the i3's performance they'd be the butt of jokes and stockholders would abandon ship...

Very true. This is also true if BMW tried to sell an IC car with the i3's styling.

GSP

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Then again, many people (at least over here) who are in the range for normally buying a 30K Euro car still won't even consider buying a Model S for 80K to 100K Euro, because it just isn't in their budget. I'm always amazed at how some people here say "I have never bought a car that cost more than 25K Dollars but now I got me a Model S". These people must have bought those cheap cars only because they didn't want to buy more expensive cars. I mean the price difference is huge! You normally don't have that much money just lying around - or easily available. From what I experienced, over here people who only buy cheap cars do it because they have to (small budget). People who have the funds tend to buy expensive cars, because cars after all also represent social status. That is not to say that such people might not buy a cheap car as well - as secondary or tertiary mode of transportation (or for the kids), but in general, someone who has only bought small cars up to now will not even have the ability to afford a Model S. And banks won't hand such a person 80K to 100K Euro to buy a car that is way out of their league. (Even more so at times like these).



True on the second point to an extent, but as far as Mini (which I am sure everybody knows is also BMW) is concerned, the i3 could in fact cannibalize some of its sales (and especially those of the Mini EV, which is in almost exactly the same market as the i3).

On the first point, the selling point of the i3 is not just that it is an EV, that might be its main selling point. But the other important selling point is that it is a great city vehicle, something the Model S definitely is not. When I think of our cities, their parking spaces, size of parking garages, narrow and cramped roads etc., I think the i3 will - to many people - seem a far more attractive proposition than a behemoth like the Model S.

In the US there are many examples of wealthy people who choose to live modestly. Some drive older cars and wear timex watches. Warren Buffet, Sam Walton are a couple of famous examples, and there are many others. Of course, there are many who spend and even flaunt their money, but they generally are not respected as much.

Good point about the i3 being a better city car than the Model S. The Volt/Ampera, Leaf, and others also compete here. I think Tesla's Gen3 will be vastly superior when it comes out.

GSP

 

[gnelson]

The Model S is a great city car and is not a behemouth. A smaller car may be easier to park, but I would rather drive a more comfortable car and encounter a little more difficulty in parking.

I did not buy a Tesla for status. I bought it for comfort and performance. I feel I sacrificed little performance if any when I traded my Corvette convertible. It is the most comfortable car that I have owned. I also bought the Tesla because I loved the experience of driving an electric powered vehicle (Chevrolet Volt). The Volt is also a great city car, but I prefer diving the Tesla in the city.

 

[Doug_G]

Design News - Captain Hybrid - Slideshow: BMW Unveils Premium Electric Car

Koslowski said that the 2,600-lb i3 will probably compete most directly with the Tesla Model S, a premium electric car with a price tag that’s about $30,000 higher than the i3’s. He wondered, however, whether the vehicle’s character will be right for traditional BMW buyers. “At the end of the day, it’s still a very small vehicle,” he told us. “It looks different from their other vehicles, and that could drive away some of those consumers who like BMWs.”

Uh, yeah.

 

[VolkerP]

Actually I consider it wrong to talk about "them" when discussing BMW's actions. The BMW owner family, Quandt, put serious pressure on the top level management to accelerate the development of alternative propulsion cars. As I understand it, an interal team was tasked with that development. Reportedly, there was (and is) some serious fighting and active obstruction going on inside BMW, until the task force was accepted and allowed to tap into the 'conventional' development resources.

So I don't see the i3 as a half-assed try produced by all of BMW, but rather an excellent result of a very minor part of BMW trying to innovate.

BTW There is a photo report on BMW EVs (Heise Autos) giving the impression that there is more than 40 years of continuous EVs development history. The story's time of launch suggests that the i3 now is the culmination point.

I have my doubts with that picture, since the Mini-e experimental fleet used drive train technology from AC Propulsion. It seems to me that BMW EV development was not revived by dusting off parts from old era, rather by jump starting it with third party technology.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is another pointer that not all of BMW's resources were directed towards EV development.

 

[djp]

From the BMW earnings call this morning:

Operator:
The next question comes from Mr. Philippe Houchois, UBS.

<Q - Philippe J. Houchois>: Good afternoon… Dr. Reithofer is as you've communicated a lot around the i3, we see a lot of discussions in the press about the i3 versus Tesla. Tesla is of course a competitor. At the same time, though how do you look at the situation? I think that the success of Tesla near-term is a great support to what you're trying to do in terms of acceptance of the electric car, and the market is kind of niche enough for a while. So what's your view? Do you see Tesla as a competitor or do you see Tesla's success as a great support to your endeavors in that direction?

<A - Maximilian Schberl>: Thank you very much, Philippe, for your last question. I think the question about Tesla is the right question for the chairman. Mr. Reithofer, please?

<A - Norbert Reithofer>: I mean for us, of course Tesla is a competitor, but on the other hand, the results of Tesla are encouraging for us. Why? I mean if you see the market for electric cars in the year 2012, we are talking about 93,000 vehicles worldwide. The estimate for the year 2013 is roughly about 150,000 cars. So that means - and Tesla is part of it and if you see the United States of America as one example, then in the first quarter of 2013, the growth rate in the U.S. market was roughly 135% for battery electric vehicles, and battery electric vehicles with range extender. And as I said, I see the results of Tesla, as for us, very encouraging so because it opens up the market for electric vehicles, and now we are entering the market with our BMW i3 and next year with our plug-in hybrid BMW i8. And it will show as well to a lot of customers that electric cars and plug-in hybrids are a real alternative.

And let me tell you one thing about the cost. If you go into the year 2020 or 2025, then it will cost you a lot to reduce the conventional cars from a CO2 level where we are at a moment to a much lower level. That means from a cost point of view, you are coming from both sides, electrification the one side, and you have to accept more and more costs as well in your conventional cars to bring them down from a CO2 point of view. So that means if the Tesla vehicles are a success, our i3 is a success, then it's really a breakthrough for electric cars.

 

[FreeOfPge]

So that means if the Tesla vehicles are a success, our i3 is a success, then it's really a breakthrough for electric cars.

I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my desk, Hahahaha, hahahahaha, hahahahaha, lol, omg, are you kidding me????

 

[ggies07]

I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my desk, Hahahaha, hahahahaha, hahahahaha, lol, omg, are you kidding me????

Yeah, I chuckled out loud as well. Ridicules.

 

[Aphysician]

@ SwedishAdvocate

Don't worry about paid uninterested spokespersons. When brand ambassadors need to explain why it is a great product then there is something not optimal. Even a short interview with them loooks uninspiring. In comparison, Tesla now has 15000 pleased customers in addition to a large enthusiast community, who are motivated and ready to do everything for the company.

I waited a long time for i3 and MB B Class ED, however it started becoming clear that i3 is not going to be the car that I was hoping for. Range is everything, ofcourse everybody needs to see if vehicle range fits their lifestyle. For me didn't, and I am glad I didn't wait for this. Nothing significant is happening in EV space for 2 years or so. Infiniti LE may raise the game a little bit, however got delayed and I doubt it will be a game changer. Tesla should be fine with Gen III in 2017, however they should preview it in late 2015 to stop people from getting another EV.

I was listening to NPR critique, one auto analyst said that it will be hard to insure as CFRP is expensive to make and you cant really repair it.

 

[AustinPowers]

In the US there are many examples of wealthy people who choose to live modestly. Some drive older cars and wear timex watches. Warren Buffet, Sam Walton are a couple of famous examples, and there are many others. Of course, there are many who spend and even flaunt their money, but they generally are not respected as much.

Good point about the i3 being a better city car than the Model S. The Volt/Ampera, Leaf, and others also compete here. I think Tesla's Gen3 will be vastly superior when it comes out.

GSP

That is what I am hoping on.

And about those wealthy but modest people: of course there are quite a few of those (in Germany the Albrecht brothers, founders of Aldi, are/were a perfect example), but I wasn't talking about the super-rich, just about those able to afford cars in the price range of a Model S. And of those, many here wouldn't dream of driving a "cheap" car as their main car. They don't necessarily tend to waste their money or show off in a big way otherwise, it's just a car thing. Remember, Germans are a car crazy people ;-)

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The Model S is a great city car and is not a behemouth.

You obviously have no idea of European cities! Don't think American sized street layouts, car parks, parking spaces etc. Think small (often tiny)! I know, the American motto is the exact oppsite ;-)

 

[ManuVince]

Talking about i3 in Europe. I think the main concern for the i3 in europe isn't Tesla, it's Renault. The ZOE is in the exact same class (4 seater city EV) with a comparable range, the interior is less good, but the exterior of the ZOE is far better than the one of the i3 (at least for my own taste). YTD the ZOE already sells better than the leaf and was introduced only late spring to French market and barely 2 month ago outside of France.

Is the nice interior and better performance of the i3 (but mostly the BMW badge) worth the price difference? European customers will decide. But when it comes to city car, I do trust the French to do it right. (full disclosure while I'm French, I'm at my 3rd german car)

It's funny to see how the discussion is diverted in comparing the i3 to the model S, I think it is pointless to compare a city car (even a luxury one) to a luxury sport sedan. That's truly not where the i3 compete, at least not in Europe.

 

[gnelson]

Talking about i3 in Europe. I think the main concern for the i3 in europe isn't Tesla, it's Renault. The ZOE is in the exact same class (4 seater city EV) with a comparable range, the interior is less good, but the exterior of the ZOE is far better than the one of the i3 (at least for my own taste). YTD the ZOE already sells better than the leaf and was introduced only late spring to French market and barely 2 month ago outside of France.

Is the nice interior and better performance of the i3 (but mostly the BMW badge) worth the price difference? European customers will decide. But when it comes to city car, I do trust the French to do it right. (full discloser while I'm French, I'm at my 3rd german car)

It's funny to see how the discussion is diverted in comparing the i3 to the model S, I think it is pointless to compare a city car (even a luxury one) to a luxury sport sedan. That's truly not where the i3 compete, at least not in Europe.

You make perfect sense and the last part of your post applies in the US as well!

 

[gameon]

You make perfect sense and the last part of your post applies in the US as well!

Agree.. don't ever compare to i3 to model s or even i8 (it has ICE)