BMW shows more EV concepts, still can’t build EVs in any significant quantity

[ecarfan]

https://electrek.co/2019/06/25/bmw-accelerates-electric-car-plans-new-ev-concepts/

BMW is masterful at showing “concept” EVs, but pathetic at building EVs in quantity right now that people want to buy. Same old story from the Germans...

 

[Valore]

BMW sells about as many EV as Tesla in Europe.

May 2019 numbers:
Tesla Model 3: 2849

BMW i3: 2718
(BMW 530e: 1060)

 

[Rockster]

BMW sells about as many EV as Tesla in Europe.

May 2019 numbers:
Tesla Model 3: 2849

BMW i3: 2718
(BMW 530e: 1060)

View attachment 423570

BMW has had a little bit of time to establish a presence in the U.S. I think comparing U.S. to U.S. numbers is fair.

 

[mspohr]

BMW sells about as many EV as Tesla in Europe.

May 2019 numbers:
Tesla Model 3: 2849

BMW i3: 2718
(BMW 530e: 1060)

View attachment 423570

As far as I can tell, 26176 is about twice 13850 for YTD.

 

[Candleflame]

BMW has the finest automotive and electrical engineers Germany has. They could easily build an EV as good as a Tesla's cars (and have shown this with the BMW ActivE back when Tesla was still dabbeling with ther Roadster). But management simply does not want them to.

A BMW 3 series with a ground based battery, nice big cargo area, range of 500km EPA (cd of the current 3 series is better than the Model 3 I think) would just take away sales from their ICE 3 series.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Ho hum. Munro demonstrated in a straightforward engineering analysis that Tesla's designs are superior to both BMW's i3 and Chevy's Bolt. I've heard that "they could if they only wanted to" a little too often now and seen too much really smart tech coming out of Tesla.

 

[Candleflame]

Ho hum. Munro demonstrated in a straightforward engineering analysis that Tesla's designs are superior to both BMW's i3 and Chevy's Bolt. I've heard that "they could if they only wanted to" a little too often now and seen too much really smart tech coming out of Tesla.

BMW is busy selling their ICE cars, they do not want to sell everyone a good EV when they can sell them ICEs and they then have to buy an EV later anyway. The i3 is a pisstake and obviously not meant to be a top seller. Obviously. You seen the ActivE?

That thing mops the floor with the i3 even though it is a much older design and just an ICE chassis.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Let's not get hung up on an aborted EV with a range of under 100 miles - it feels like the distant past.

BMW still has several attempts left to prove its mettle.

 

[Candleflame]

Let's not get hung up on an aborted EV with a range of under 100 miles - it feels like the distant past.

BMW still has several attempts left to prove its mettle.

this is an ICE car retrofitted with electric motor. It was a prototype which could have become a great EV on a proper chassis and with a bigger battery. And let's not talk about that Tesla wasn't that efficient back in 2011 either! 102 mpge is not too shabby for that.

 

[mspohr]

I think China has a much better chance of taking over EVs. They have hundreds of models in development and national policies to support manufacturing and sales. It's only a matter of time before they start exports.
BMW has missed the boat.

 

[sixela]

could have become

Subjunctive pluperfect -- usually indicative of a lack of revenue ;-).

 

[mspohr]

This is funny...

Nobody wants EVs, says BMW
BMW says it could sell a million electric vehicles with government incentives, as European new-car CO2 emissions continue to rise

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/nobody-wants-evs-says-bmw-119190/

“There is no customer requests for BEVs,” BMW’s director of development, Klaus Frölich, told a shocked round-table interview in Munich yesterday. “There are regulator requests for BEVs.”


“We think the customers in Europe they are reluctant to buy BEVs and the plug-ins are the better option. The PHEVs are built on the same architecture as the BEVs, so the ‘Eagle Wing’ battery goes into the floor and we can give them extra range by adding battery modules.

 

[S'toon]

This is funny...

Nobody wants EVs, says BMW
BMW says it could sell a million electric vehicles with government incentives, as European new-car CO2 emissions continue to rise

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/nobody-wants-evs-says-bmw-119190/

“There is no customer requests for BEVs,” BMW’s director of development, Klaus Frölich, told a shocked round-table interview in Munich yesterday. “There are regulator requests for BEVs.”


“We think the customers in Europe they are reluctant to buy BEVs and the plug-ins are the better option. The PHEVs are built on the same architecture as the BEVs, so the ‘Eagle Wing’ battery goes into the floor and we can give them extra range by adding battery modules.

Maybe BMW should try making something other than the crappy i3. Nobody wants that, he's correct.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Actually, I find it interesting how many people do actually buy EVs like the e-Golf and BMW i3 [which I've grown quite fond of]. Though in the case of the e-Golf I suspect a lot of companies and municipalities can be counted in.

2019-Q1 EV sales Europe
Electric Car Segment 2019-Q1 2018-Q1 Change %EV 2019 %EV 2018
1 Tesla Model 3 18.204 0 New 100% –
2 Renault Zoe 11.153 8.517 31% 100% 100%
3 Nissan Leaf 9.484 8.450 12% 100% 100%
4 Volkswagen e-Golf 6.244 5.159 21% 5,6% 3,9%
5 Hyundai Kona EV 6.014 0 New 23,7% –
6 BMW i3 (est.) 5.473 3.846 42% 67% 67%
7 Kia Niro EV 3.364 0 New 22,2% 0,0%
8 Jaguar I-Pace 2.903 0 New 100% –
9 Hyundai Ioniq Electric 2.659 2.553 4% 30,8% 34,8%
10 Audi e-Tron 2.620 0 New 100% –

Source http://carsalesbase.com/european-sales-2019-q1-ev-phev-segments/

 

[mspohr]

Good long analysis of BMWs failures.

BMW has just been too lazy and arrogant to innovate, preferring short-term easy profits and resting on the laurels of its combustion engine investments, at the expense of perpetuating pollution, damaging people’s health, and the destabilizing the climate. In my view, with high-level board members like Fröhlich still playing politics and delaying any sincere effort to make BEVs, they simply don’t deserve to survive the transition.

BMW Lets Slip That Its Electric Vehicles Can't Compete With Tesla's | CleanTechnica

Perhaps what he really means to say is that BMW itself is simply incapable (or unwilling) to make decent-range BEVs that are attractive to consumers. This seems to be the case:

The truth of the matter is that BMW cannot see beyond its legacy investments in combustion powertrains, even in full knowledge of their pollution, health, and climate impacts. Selling PHEVs allows BMW to cling to some of those investments for a while longer. More than simply struggling with investments, however, there’s a deeply entrenched cultural-weddedness to combustion engines inside BMW, and executives seem to be resistant to making the leap to something new (and better). In short, the culture at BMW is one that fears change.

 

[SMAlset]

So Krueger is out at BMW, apparently letting him finish his term but looking for a replacement. Read in the last few weeks that stockholders and BMW insiders are upset not only with the decline in sales but also going from i3 to nowhere in 8 years I think they said and not coming up with a Tesla killer in all this time. Rumors had been floating his time in charge was coming to an end and saw confirmed in press today.

From the statement Frolich made (see in a post made above in thread) he should be on his way out too after saying there’s no demand for EVs. Sure if the only thing you can manage to come up with is a ugly looking i3 I can see why and you are blind to what Tesla has done. Sit on your ICE and freeze yourself out of the future.

And just read Ford wants to buy their EV platform to use. Somehow if I was Ford I’d be looking elsewhere with someone more creative and forward thinking.

 

[mspohr]

Tesla Disrupts - BMW Boss Throws In The Towel | CleanTechnica


BMW CEO Harald Krüger has resigned his post, citing recent, “enormous changes, which have brought about more transformation than in the previous 30 years.” He is referring to the rapid rise of Tesla’s compelling electric vehicles that are crushing BMW’s car offerings in the US market and are now threatening to disrupt sales in the key Europe and Chinese markets as well.

Whilst this makes clear that Krüger has deemed it wise to remain on the fence, BMW’s sedan sales have fallen off a cliff in the US market over the past 12 months directly as a result of Tesla’s fully electric Model 3. As we predicted early on and have frequently documented over the past year, the Tesla Model 3 has stolen significant US market share in the premium sedan segment.

Thanks to the steep production and delivery ramp of the Tesla Model 3 in 2018, overall US sedan sales figures of the world’s leading BEV maker are now over twice the volume of BMW’s US car sales.

 

[VT_EE]

BMW has the finest automotive and electrical engineers Germany has. They could easily build an EV as good as a Tesla's cars (and have shown this with the BMW ActivE back when Tesla was still dabbeling with ther Roadster). But management simply does not want them to.

A BMW 3 series with a ground based battery, nice big cargo area, range of 500km EPA (cd of the current 3 series is better than the Model 3 I think) would just take away sales from their ICE 3 series.

I don't think so. The design and production of a traditional ICE automobile largely involves mechanical engineering expertise. There is some electrical engineering discipline required for engine control systems, but these are just implementing mechanical engineering algorithms to make an ICE engine work. Also, let's not forget that many parts of these systems are outsourced to companies like Bosche. The electrical engineering required to design the 12V (or48V) systems is, in all reality, trivial these days. As far as software goes, BMW must have a few developers to develop their infotainment and implement any in-house mechanical engineering control requirements, but this is small stuff in the grand scheme of things.

Now let's look at Tesla. I believe the engineering talent requirements are much more balanced than at BMW. Electric motors have been around forever, and their design is not dramatically different than those from decades past. Improvements in design and efficiency require expertise in EM Fields, control systems, computer design, software. Mechanical engineer requirements mainly include: heat transfer, packaging, anything related to moving parts. The majority of everything in a Tesla drivetrain is the result of electrical engineering and software expertise, which they've developed over the last decade. They have built a platform that is highly customizable after production. You want an improvement to an existing vehicle? Change the software controls to alter electron movement.

The point of all my rambling is that I don't think BMW or any other legacy manufacturers have the talent pool needed to compete with companies like Tesla and Rivian. They are staffed to design ICE vehicles, which is a very different exercise than designing BEVs. They are staffed to design devices that change chemical energy into mechanical energy. A BEV changes electrical energy into mechanical energy. Two very different activities. Retraining, hiring, and developing this talent will take them years.

I didn't even mention the fact that efficiently building a BEV is different than building an ICE. Changing will require more training and development for their manufacturing engineers. Again, a long process.

Most of the talking heads on Wall Street are too ignorant to understand any of this.

Edit: I completely left out all the chemical engineering expertise needed for battery development. Pretty sure this talent pool is minimal at most legacy automakers.

 

[mspohr]

I don't think so. The design and production of a traditional ICE automobile largely involves mechanical engineering expertise. There is some electrical engineering discipline required for engine control systems, but these are just implementing mechanical engineering algorithms to make an ICE engine work. Also, let's not forget that many parts of these systems are outsourced to companies like Bosche. The electrical engineering required to design the 12V (or48V) systems is, in all reality, trivial these days. As far as software goes, BMW must have a few developers to develop their infotainment and implement any in-house mechanical engineering control requirements, but this is small stuff in the grand scheme of things.

Now let's look at Tesla. I believe the engineering talent requirements are much more balanced than at BMW. Electric motors have been around forever, and their design is not dramatically different than those from decades past. Improvements in design and efficiency require expertise in EM Fields, control systems, computer design, software. Mechanical engineer requirements mainly include: heat transfer, packaging, anything related to moving parts. The majority of everything in a Tesla drivetrain is the result of electrical engineering and software expertise, which they've developed over the last decade. They have built a platform that is highly customizable after production. You want an improvement to an existing vehicle? Change the software controls to alter electron movement.

The point of all my rambling is that I don't think BMW or any other legacy manufacturers have the talent pool needed to compete with companies like Tesla and Rivian. They are staffed to design ICE vehicles, which is a very different exercise than designing BEVs. They are staffed to design devices that change chemical energy into mechanical energy. A BEV changes electrical energy into mechanical energy. Two very different activities. Retraining, hiring, and developing this talent will take them years.

I didn't even mention the fact that efficiently building a BEV is different than building an ICE. Changing will require more training and development for their manufacturing engineers. Again, a long process.

Most of the talking heads on Wall Street are too ignorant to understand any of this.

Edit: I completely left out all the chemical engineering expertise needed for battery development. Pretty sure this talent pool is minimal at most legacy automakers.

I agree.
The major (soon to be minor) automakers have large investments and expertise in ICE powertrains... and that's about all they have. Unfortunately, this expertise and all those factories are obsolete and irrelevant.
Lately they have been panicking about EVs with announcements of lots of new EVs coming "real soon now" but they don't have the expertise or manufacturing base to make EV powertrains. They are even frantically forming joint ventures with each other to try to come up with something. (As if two drowning men hanging onto each other will float.)
So much for the all of the pundits saying that it would be trivial for BMW, Mercedes, etc. to crush Tesla with superior EVs.

 

[KD5MDK]

I think you are underestimating the investment traditional automakers have in reliability, safety, manufacturing efficiency and service supply chain. Those are also important industrial skill sets.