Boeing 787 Dreamliner & Battery Issues

[mulder1231]

Real-life Tony Stark to the rescue!

 

[Majerus]

Tesla Helping Boeing

This weekend I was at the Saint Louis auto show explaining how the model s worked and showing individuals the "cool" aspects of the car. While explaining how the model s uses a battery I keep getting asked "Is the battery going to blow up like the Boeing battery?" Well it now seems that Tesla is making strides to help Boeing out.. too bad i didnt know that before the show

Tesla helping Boeing on batteries - Silicon Valley Business Journal

 

[augkuo]

Elon Musk offers to help Boeing with battery issue

Tesla CEO Elon Musk offers Boeing help with Dreamliner battery issue - San Jose Mercury News

 

[aronth5]

Nothing new about Boeing's dreamliner but I liked this comment about Elon. Someday the quote will have to be changed to "two feet in space". Mars anyone?

Edmunds says: An intriguing offer from Elon Musk, one of those rare individuals with one foot on earth and one foot in space.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tesla-motors-and-spacex-boss-offers-to-help-with-boeing-787-fix.html

 

[djp]

The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX and owner of electric car maker Tesla.

"Unfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.

"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

 

[Norbert]

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

Good to read Donald Sadoway (well-known researcher in the field of batteries) confirmed the assessment (as Boing seems to give a different message):

Musk's assessments of battery cells were confirmed by Donald Sadoway, a professor of electrical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

"I would have used the same words," says Sadoway. "I would have used the same words. I'm glad someone with such a big reputation put it on the line."

"He's engineered [Tesla's battery] to prevent the domino effect, while Boeing evidently doesn't have that engineering," adds Sadoway.

(An open question is whether there might be more to it, such as the reason for the initial thermal problem... if not explained by this quote: "It is much harder to maintain an even temperature in a large cell, as the distance from the center of the cell to the edge is much greater, which increases the risk of thermal runaway.")

 

[brianman]

I wonder if Musk would be interested in Tesla building battery packs for Boeing. That would be a pretty big name to tack on the "supplied by Tesla" list. And it would tell an interesting story of cross-industry technology wins, etc.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I wonder if Musk would be interested in Tesla building battery packs for Boeing. That would be a pretty big name to tack on the "supplied by Tesla" list. And it would tell an interesting story of cross-industry technology wins, etc.

All I know from talking to the copy editors here is that this story is going to be huge today. People, including me, thought Elon was just trolling for publicity and to inoculate his companies from anti Li-ion blowback.

But he just threw down the gauntlet with a substantive criticism which points to a fundamental design flaw in the way Boeing implemented their battery architecture. This is likely to be a major, major story.. ish just got real.

Edit: To respond directly to you comment, it occurs to me that Tesla is basically the only company which I am aware of which uses tons of tiny cells. I've always figured their patent portfolio was heavily based on the control and safe management of that architecture, and that was a key reason why I felt Tesla had an advantage over other car makers going forward.

I wonder now to what extent Tesla IP actually precludes other companies from designing Tesla style packs. I figured the advantage was primarily economic because of the use of consumer electronics batteries, but it now seems as if it affects safety as well.

Musk's argument leads to the conclusion that his packs are inherently the safest on the market. And he has all kinds of fresh patents covering his design.

 

[dsm363]

"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature,"

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

(And then JRP3 post a video of "better design" from company under chapter eleven ;P )

Boeing has declined help from SpaceX and Tesla from the article above. Doesn't seem like a smart move even from a purely PR perspective. They should be seen as taking every possible route to fix the problem. And for a multi-billion dollar plane, throwing a few million dollars at SpaceX to bail them out might get the planes back in the air faster and help their share price.

 

[JRP3]

Let's not forget however that the risk is higher using LiCo based chemistry. The Volt and Karma packs are larger format cells packed together with cooling plates in between, liquid cooling for the Volt and air for the Karma. The LEAF uses larger format cells pack in groups of 4 I think, then those are stacked together with no active cooling. LiFePO4 chemistry would have been a better choice for Boeing when using large format cells, but even so at this point the failure looks to be external battery controls. Even with a Tesla design if the external power source continuously over charges the battery it's going to cause all cells to overheat until that power source is removed. As bad as this incident was the fire was contained as designed. The real key is getting the control electronics right with enough redundancy to cut off the power when necessary.

 

[sp4rk]

Not thought about this before, but Elon Musk / Tesla is sounding like a Faroudja.

Anyone familiar with Faroudja? Started by Yves and Isabel (Faroudja) in the 70's?

Their eponymous company built "line doublers" for a whopping $15,000 - $25,000 (for high end home theaters) that made NTSC TV's simulate HDMI. The effect back then (1990) was unreal.

Years later Faroudja licensed their technology to almost everyone else. Acronyms "DCDi" and "3/4 pull down" became commonplace. And by 2000 (or before) you'd buy the any product made by Sony, Samsung, etc., to do with video and in the fine print ... licensed by Faroudja.

Not that this has anything to do with Lithium batteries, but I predict within 10 years we'll see a significant portion of Tesla's profits generated by licensing and / or manufacturing for 3rd parties.

Go Tesla!

 

[AnOutsider]

Boeing has declined help from SpaceX and Tesla from the article above. Doesn't seem like a smart move even from a purely PR perspective. They should be seen as taking every possible route to fix the problem. And for a multi-billion dollar plane, throwing a few million dollars at SpaceX to bail them out might get the planes back in the air faster and help their share price.

I wonder if their rejection has more to do with the fact that Boeing and SpaceX are basically competitors in the race for space. If they're seen as inferior to Tesla by accepting their help, it could be more likely that Tesla will be awarded contracts over Boeing.

 

[ElSupreme]

I wonder if their rejection has more to do with the fact that Boeing and SpaceX are basically competitors in the race for space. If they're seen as inferior to Tesla by accepting their help, it could be more likely that Tesla will be awarded contracts over Boeing.

I think this is a big factor in Boeing's reaction. I wouldn't be supprised in a secret (or hushed) deal to license some patents from one to the other though. I honestly think that Boeing needs to buy the closest thing to 'off the shelf' as possible to get going again. And I think that with A123 in bankruptcy, Tesla might be the best stable option for them. I wonder if Nissan or GM has anything that might help Boeing.

 

[Doug_G]

Unless there is a "quick fix" for the existing design, these planes are going to be grounded for a year. If they are smart Boeing is already running a contingency project (or projects) to completely replace the entire battery system.

 

[jerry33]

Space between cells is necessary if using a chemistry that runs hot and is more prone to thermal runaway.

Shouldn't that be "SpaceX between the cells is necessary".

 

[Martini]

Maybe, but it is also true that any fix beyond a minor tweak of existing hardware or software means massive delay and recertification, so Boeing is very motivated to believe the current system is sound. Tesla's message to them to throw out the battery and start over is a very unwelcome solution.

I wonder if their rejection has more to do with the fact that Boeing and SpaceX are basically competitors in the race for space. If they're seen as inferior to Tesla by accepting their help, it could be more likely that Tesla will be awarded contracts over Boeing.

 

[Johan]

From the same article where Elon "calls it like he sees it" (Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe)

Mike Sinnett, Boeing's 787 chief project engineer, explained the careful design philosophy employed for the 787's battery system, the first to serve as a starter for an auxiliary power unit and emergency power back-up in a commercial aircraft.

"I design a cell to not fail and then assume it will and the ask the next 'what-if' questions," Sinnett said. "And then I design the batteries that if there is a failure of one cell it won't propagate to another. And then I assume that I am wrong and that it will propagate to antoher and then I design the enclosure and the redundancy of the equipment to assume that all the cells are involved and the airplane needs to be able to play through that."

Well, good luck with that Mike :tongue:

 

[stopcrazypp]

From the same article where Elon "calls it like he sees it" (Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe)

Mike Sinnett, Boeing's 787 chief project engineer, explained the careful design philosophy employed for the 787's battery system, the first to serve as a starter for an auxiliary power unit and emergency power back-up in a commercial aircraft.

"I design a cell to not fail and then assume it will and the ask the next 'what-if' questions," Sinnett said. "And then I design the batteries that if there is a failure of one cell it won't propagate to another. And then I assume that I am wrong and that it will propagate to antoher and then I design the enclosure and the redundancy of the equipment to assume that all the cells are involved and the airplane needs to be able to play through that."

Well, good luck with that Mike :tongue:

To be fair to Mike, the external battery box did do its job in containing the fire. I think it's still too early to blame the battery pack design (or the cells themselves) until the investigation actually finds a cause for the failures.

 

[Doug_G]

To be fair to Mike, the external battery box did do its job in containing the fire. I think it's still too early to blame the battery pack design (or the cells themselves) until the investigation actually finds a cause for the failures.

There is rarely just one cause. The box probably saved many lives. If as Elon says the cells aren't sufficiently isolated then they missed an opportunity to stop the failure earlier. There's another cause on top of that, probably an issue with the charging system (since they have exonerated the cells what else is left?).

 

[JRP3]

As I understand it the cells have been cleared of defects. The physical pack design could have been better, i.e. each cell in it's own container with a small air gap between, but if the external power management was properly designed it should not have been necessary and should not have gotten to this point.