bollards on garage side wall in Riverside county, ca?

[holeydonut]

bollards ! bollards ! bollards ! ...
sorry thats my contribution to thread ...
i just knew it would be hot topic .. and was counting millisec until @holeydonut jumped in on this action
@Vines your diagram is pure powerwall nerd porn ... as usual

jjrandorin needs to get TMC to add some more emojis. Like we need some blade disconnects, bollards, and NEC placard emojis.

 

[SVDNN]

Perhaps if you consider it from the perspective of a belt and suspenders petty official; is there a scenario under which a moving car could possibly hit the batteries, e.g. diagonal entry, inadvertent swerve...? From the way SCC was behaving for us, it seemed like they were considering just if it was possible. Hence, the requirement to behind a wall, a bollard, or more than 36" above the floor. I am not saying that is your case, but sometimes if you can figure out where they are coming from you can address the concern a different way.

Would the latter work for you? e.g. raise the powerwalls to above 36"?

@Vines: that is funny (well not really as it is IP theft) that SCC took your graphic. I recognize the vehicle now.

And, yes, SCC pushed us into 36" separation between powerwalls, not installed on the house, which added a couple of thousand to the cost. I'm ok with the result as for us it ended up being safer (fire risk) and the location is NE facing and much more sheltered from the sun, which ought to help the longevity of the powerwalls.

All the best,

BG

If this was truly a concern, I assume they would require bollards in front of every ESS install, inside or outside.
What is preventing someone from accidentally swerving and hitting the batteries on the outside wall??

 

[BGbreeder]

If this was truly a concern, I assume they would require bollards in front of every ESS install, inside or outside.
What is preventing someone from accidentally swerving and hitting the batteries on the outside wall??

What is to stop your neighbor from taking out the shrubbery and nailing it?
"Oh, ok, then if you have that kind of neighbor, then you need to install K-rail..."
You are totally right that the list from the inspectors goes on, and on, and there isn't a hard and fast rule of a one in XXX probability, which is why some AHJs, like SCC, went to an extreme. When there is more experience with ESS, look for all sorts of adjustments in code, permitting and insurance. In the meantime, welcome to the Wild West of new technology adoption.

I hope that it works out ok for you.

All the best,

BG

 

[Electrph]

What is to stop your neighbor from taking out the shrubbery and nailing it?
"Oh, ok, then if you have that kind of neighbor, then you need to install K-rail..."
You are totally right that the list from the inspectors goes on, and on, and there isn't a hard and fast rule of a one in XXX probability, which is why some AHJs, like SCC, went to an extreme. When there is more experience with ESS, look for all sorts of adjustments in code, permitting and insurance. In the meantime, welcome to the Wild West of new technology adoption.

I hope that it works out ok for you.

All the best,

BG

I think what chaps my and maybe other’s hides, these are not installed in public areas .. these are people’s private garages. If you cannot manage to not ram into essentially what is your own wall at speed … I think you need more than a bollard in your life ..I and many I know have somehow for decades managed to not take out our own water heater or do a full kool aid man impression into the living room. But as you said it’s new tech so we need protection from it

 

[jjrandorin]

I think what chaps my and maybe other’s hides, these are not installed in public areas .. these are people’s private garages. If you cannot manage to not ram into essentially what is your own wall at speed … I think you need more than a bollard in your life ..I and many I know have somehow for decades managed to not take out our own water heater or do a full kool aid man impression into the living room. But as you said it’s new tech so we need protection from it

Right?


I have roughly 160kW of batteries parked in my garage that are able to roll around every day and could possibly smash into stuff, and thats apparently fine, but omg we cant put 13.5kW of batteries on a garage wall any longer without protection!

 

[Electrph]

your pw placement is almost identical to mine ..(if i squint my eyes and pretend you have an unfinished garage and standard concrete floors ) ....
point is wall of powerwalls are at least 2 feet back from car door garage . even with 6" thickness of pw you would have to veer to left coming in to garage to scrape them off the wall who does that ??

 

[Redhill_qik]

If this was truly a concern, I assume they would require bollards in front of every ESS install, inside or outside.
What is preventing someone from accidentally swerving and hitting the batteries on the outside wall??

In the drawing that @Vines posted earlier for the new code, bollards are shown as required next to ESS mounted on exterior walls that could be hit by a vehicle. ESS located on an exterior wall that is outside of the drive path are not shown with bollards.

 

[Vines]

I think what chaps my and maybe other’s hides, these are not installed in public areas .. these are people’s private garages. If you cannot manage to not ram into essentially what is your own wall at speed … I think you need more than a bollard in your life ..I and many I know have somehow for decades managed to not take out our own water heater or do a full kool aid man impression into the living room. But as you said it’s new tech so we need protection from it

In some areas especially where impaired driving is a factor people hit their own garages more often than you think.

The fire departments want to prevent a "kool-aid main impression" from turning into a powerful structure fire which is extremely difficult to extinguish due to the nature of a lithium fire. This is especially true in areas where the homes are heavily wooded, as one structure fire could swiftly turn into a hillside fire involving other structures. Many of these areas are not accessible by fire truck and so fires in these areas can be extremely dangerous and involve multi-million dollar homes.

 

[Electrph]

In some areas especially where impaired driving is a factor people hit their own garages more often than you think.

The fire departments want to prevent a "kool-aid main impression" from turning into a powerful structure fire which is extremely difficult to extinguish due to the nature of a lithium fire. This is especially true in areas where the homes are heavily wooded, as one structure fire could swiftly turn into a hillside fire involving other structures. Many of these areas are not accessible by fire truck and so fires in these areas can be extremely dangerous and involve multi-million dollar homes.

yea i prob give ppl more credit than i should in being able to navigate their own garage ... i should know better based on my daily commute
valid point on it possibly affecting others not just darwining your own home

 

[jboy210]

Right?


I have roughly 160kW of batteries parked in my garage that are able to roll around every day and could possibly smash into stuff, and thats apparently fine, but omg we cant put 13.5kW of batteries on a garage wall any longer without protection!


View attachment 784788

Don't give them ideas. Soon you may have to have separate stainless enclosures for each of your cars. Each with a suppression system.

 

[holeydonut]

Maybe they can just put the bollard on the front bumper of the car ? So if you get in a collision while driving you are protected by the bollards?

I have the best ideas.

 

[Electrph]

Maybe they can just put the bollard on the front bumper of the car ? So if you get in a collision while driving you are protected by the bollards?

I have the best ideas.

and what about the rear ?? you just want ppl to die you animal !!
think of the children !!!!

 

[holeydonut]

and what about the rear ?? you just want ppl to die you animal !!
think of the children !!!!

If someone rear ends you, they'll have a bollard on their front bumper! 100% safety.

There will be a fire suppression system built into the kid-seat anyway. No

 

[jjrandorin]

Lmao you guys are killing me here,

 

[jboy210]

Lmao you guys are killing me here,

Killing you? Interesting comment on a thread regarding excessive safety devices.

 

[jjrandorin]

Killing you? Interesting comment on a thread regarding excessive safety devices.

haha yep, I said that on purpose

 

[crackers8199]

Fun with Bollards and Fire codes!

That link is from a 4 year old article, so not super recent.

Caution the text below is pretty crunchy, and very current.

Today the CFC and CRC code says that the ESS must be 36" apart unless there has been large-scale UL 9540A fire testing. Tesla has passed this testing and the results speak for themselves. The batteries perform amazingly under forced thermal runaway.

The minimum fire code compliant separation today for Tesla Powerwall is 6" on the side and 1" face to face (stacked configuration). Some fire officials disagree and think these ESS are subject to thermal runaway at any moment, so are restricting them regardless. The truth is that most likely any event smaller than about half a dozen cells going up at once and adjacent top each other event will be contained in a puff of smoke and the built in safety features of the Powerwall will ensure that even an adjacent wood wall or soffit would not ignite.

To this day not one person has been hurt by a UL 9540A listed fire event. Granted the UL standard isn't super old either but hundreds of thousands of Powerwalls have been installed. I really do not know how many but our company alone is going on 3k units installed.

As far as bollards, there is good code basis for this now that has been adopted by the ICC and the CBSC. Next year California will adopt a piece of code I helped create, regarding exactly this issue of impact protection in residential garages.

2021 CFC 1207.11.7 will be adopted on Jan. 1, 2023.

Also, I have attached in PDF what Woodside Fire ruled as far as impact protection at the end of 2020. They are quite a wooded area in a CALFIRE Very High fire danger area.

Here's the picture part of the new code 1207.11.7.1
View attachment 784258

Here is the approximate code language subject to final approvals and editorial boards:

1207.11.7 Protection from impact. ESS installed in a location subject to vehicle damage in accordance with Section 1207.11.7.1 or 1207.11.7.2 shall be provided with impact protection in accordance with Section 1207.11.7.3.

1207.11.7.1 Garages.
Where an ESS is installed in the normal driving path of vehicle travel within a garage, impact protection complying with Section 1207.11.3 shall be
installed. The normal driving path is a line perpendicular to the garage vehicle opening to the back wall, extending 3 ft. (914 mm) to either side along
the back wall and to a height of 48 in. (1219 mm), (See Figure 1207.11.7.1)
Exception: Where the clear height of the vehicle garage opening is 7 ft 6 in, (2286 mm) or less, ESS installed not less than 36 inches (914 mm)
above finished floor are not subject to vehicle impact protection requirements.
1207.11.7.2 Other locations subject to vehicle impact.
Where an ESS is installed in a location other than as defined in Section 1207.11.7.1, and is subject to vehicle damage, impact protection shall be
provided in accordance with Section 1207.11.7.3.
1207.11.7.3 Impact Protection Options.
Where ESS is required to be protected from impact in accordance with Section 1207.11.7.1 or 1207.11.7.2 such protection shall comply with one of
the following:
1. Bollards constructed in accordance with one of the following:
1.1 48 inches (1219 mm) in length by 3 inches (76mm) in diameter schedule. 80 steel pipe embedded in a concrete pier 12 inches (304
mm) deep and 6 inches (152 mm) in diameter, with 36 inches (914 mm) of pipe exposed, filled with concrete, and spaced at a maximum
interval of 5 feet (1524 mm). Each bollard shall be located not less than 6 inches (152 mm) from an ESS.
1.2 36 inches (914 mm) in height by 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter schedule 80 steel pipe fully welded to an 8 inches (203 mm) by 8 inches
(203 mm) by ¼ inch (6.4 mm) thick steel plate and bolted to a concrete floor by means of 4 - ½ inch (13 mm) concrete anchors with 3
inch (76 mm) minimum embedment. Spacing shall be not greater than 60 inches. (1524 mm), and each bollard shall be located not less
than 6 inches (152 mm) from the ESS.
1.3 Pre-manufactured steel pipe bollards shall be filled with concrete and anchored in accordance with the manufacturer's installation
instructions, with spacing not greater than a 60 inches. (1524 mm). Located not less than 6 inches (152mm) from the ESS.

2. Wheel barriers constructed in accordance with one of the following:
2.1. 6 inches (152 mm ) in height by 6 inches (152 mm) in width wheel barrier made of concrete or polymer, anchored to the concrete floor
not less than every 36 inches (914 mm) and located not less than 54 inches (1372 mm) from the ESS.. Minimum 2 - ½ inch (13 mm)
diameter concrete anchors with 3 inch (76 mm) embedment per barrier shall be used. Spacing between barriers shall be no greater
than 36 inches. (914 mm).
2.2. Pre-manufactured wheel barriers shall be anchored in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions.
3. Approved method designed to resist a 2000 lbf (8899 Newtons) impact in the direction of travel at 24 inches (608 mm) above grade.

TLDR Don't Drive Into Your Batteries

what is the best way for me to take this to the installer to get them to install inside without bollards?

based on what i've found, the current code just says that anything "subject to impact by a motor vehicle" needs bollards, which is where they're probably getting this overly broad "anything installed anywhere in a garage needs them" idea...but i don't see anything else in the current code that defines what is "subject to impact" like this does, where it defines the "normal driving path" and speaks specifically about the back wall.

i'm still waiting for the supervisor to provide me with their explanation of why they think anywhere in a garage needs bollards, but they haven't gotten back to me yet. thinking maybe i should be proactive and just attack this myself...

 

[crackers8199]

update: installer finally got back to me this afternoon, said it's a *city* requirement to have bollards anywhere in garage. reached out to our mayor again, he had someone call me back later this afternoon...that ended up being someone in our code enforcement / building safety division. he confirmed for me that the bollard requirement is "only where in the direct drive path of a vehicle" (i.e. on the back wall). on the side wall *should not* need bollards.

i took his name and direct number, passed it on to the installer. waiting to hear back, again...

 

[BGbreeder]

@crackers8199 that sounds like a win for being a proactive customer!

BG

 

[jjrandorin]

update: installer finally got back to me this afternoon, said it's a *city* requirement to have bollards anywhere in garage. reached out to our mayor again, he had someone call me back later this afternoon...that ended up being someone in our code enforcement / building safety division. he confirmed for me that the bollard requirement is "only where in the direct drive path of a vehicle" (i.e. on the back wall). on the side wall *should not* need bollards.

i took his name and direct number, passed it on to the installer. waiting to hear back, again...

Hopefully, the person who called you back from the enforcement division is someone in authority there (since the mayor apparently referred you to them). The installers usually just want to pass code / not have any roadblocks / rework. Hopefully that extra legwork gets you what you are after.

Sounds like it will, so pre congratulations.