Bolt EV: 2017 Motor Trend Car of the Year

[Topher]

whether Tesla will join the German EV incentive programm.

I was under the impression that Tesla made a special German version on the Tesla Model S particularly to get in the incentive program. And certainly the Model 3 will be under the 60k limit.

And remember that's for the naked base model that hardly anyone will buy anyway.

You can't argue that the Model 3 won't be bought at base model price, when that is totally at the discretion of the buyer, while the Bolt will, despite the fact that that is up to the dealer who makes a better margin on non-base models.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Shumdit]

Are you really getting the impression that Tesla needs motivation from anyone other than Tesla? Auto-pilot is the best such system in the world, by far. They just jumped it 2 levels.




Thank you kindly.

Yes, I do have the impression they need motivation. Competition breeds improvement. The cars they make? Excellent. Love mine. The service center experience used to be awesome but due to Tesla's cost cutting moves it's not the same and they are not ramping up service capacity to meet sales volumes leading to unhappy customers waiting on repairs/parts/etc. If Tesla has 5 mainstream companies making compelling alternatives to what they offer they will have to make sure they meet or exceed the ownership experience those companies provide. At this point they do have some room to improve in that respect.

 

[AustinPowers]

You can't argue that the Model 3 won't be bought at base model price, when that is totally at the discretion of the buyer, while the Bolt will, despite the fact that that is up to the dealer who makes a better margin on non-base models.

Neither the Bolt nor the Model 3 will be bought as a naked base model, at least not over here, trust me. When people buy a new car over here, they want creature comforts a base model just doesn't offer. People take lots of time to configure their "dream car", they don't just walk into the dealership saying "what's the cheapest no-frills version you have on offer? Take my money and let me drive off with it". Just doesn't work that way here.

 

[Krugerrand]

Meanwhile, Chevy has put out a mass market EV that is getting rave reviews from every car media outlet that's had one to drive.

It's funny that someone would say Chevy has put out a 'mass' market EV that's not actually a) been put out yet, and b) isn't anywhere near 'mass' anything with a planned production of AT MOST 30,000. All the while the company begins to lobby the new President-elect to allow them to NOT make the car in the first place. Actually, it's hysterical.

 

[RiverBrick]

Over here, I bet you a base Ampera-e will be cheaper than a base Model 3.
Going by the experience with Model S and Model X pricing in Germany, it is reasonable to expect the base Model 3 to start at about 40K Euro, perhaps for marketing reasons they will start a little below 40, say at 39.5K Euro.

The Ampera-e is competing against the updated i3 and the soon updated e-Golf, both of which start at about 35K Euro. And it's an Opel, which means their offerings traditionally tend to always undercut the pricing of VW by a couple of Euros.

...

How much was the Ampera version of the Volt marked up in Germany? Ampera may not try to compete with the i3 or e-golf on price, because their allocation of vehicles may be very low. They could just list the car as available in their catalog for green credentials, without any intention of selling a significant volume of them.

Ford does that with the Focus EV in Europe. The car costs more than the i3 in the UK. Of course it doesn't sell. Even in Norway, nobody wants it. But Ford doesn't care as long as they can say that they offer an EV.

 

[Shumdit]

It's funny that someone would say Chevy has put out a 'mass' market EV that's not actually a) been put out yet, and b) isn't anywhere near 'mass' anything with a planned production of AT MOST 30,000. All the while the company begins to lobby the new President-elect to allow them to NOT make the car in the first place. Actually, it's hysterical.

While I agree it is not been technically released yet I do feel a car that is potentially going to be made in volumes of 30,000 per year could be considered mass produced. I do share your feeling about GM though.

 

[Krugerrand]

While I agree it is not been technically released yet I do feel a car that is potentially going to be made in volumes of 30,000 per year could be considered mass produced. I do share your feeling about GM though.

Well, the reason why I haven't defined the Bolt as mass produced because of all the people who deny that Tesla is mass producing the Model S, which exceeds 30,000 a year. Tesla is a 'niche' player apparently, therefore the Bolt in its numbers MUST be a 'niche' vehicle and not 'mass produced'. They can have their cake all day long, but I'm not letting them eat it.

 

[Shumdit]

Well, the reason why I haven't defined the Bolt as mass produced because of all the people who deny that Tesla is mass producing the Model S, which exceeds 30,000 a year. Tesla is a 'niche' player apparently, therefore the Bolt in its numbers MUST be a 'niche' vehicle and not 'mass produced'. They can have their cake all day long, but I'm not letting them eat it.

Yes I certainly see the Model S and X as Mass produced. The roadster I am not sure I would put into that category though.

 

[trils0n]

Not sure how they could have picked anything other than the Bolt for COTY. All the other cars were just the same old thing. And the first 200 mile EV by a company other than Tesla is a big deal. Add in the good price-point that instantly obsoletes all of the 80 mile EVs and it is pretty important.

Model S already won COTY years ago. I thought cars had to be significantly new to get on the list so I was surprised the Model S even qualified to run, but I guess in car industry, a new set of bumpers is significantly new. Anyway, congrats to GM. Looks like they did a good job at making a very efficient car. I'm fairly confident they will sell every one they can make (just judging by the sheer number of Leafs around here).

 

[SmartElectric]

Model S already won COTY years ago. I thought cars had to be significantly new to get on the list so I was surprised the Model S even qualified to run, but I guess in car industry, a new set of bumpers is significantly new

Seriously?

Model S - Options by Year - Tesla Motors Club Wiki

I have a "classic" Model S like the one that won COTY.
The difference between my car and a new Model S is staggering.

New smaller dual motors, battery pack technology, auto pilot hardware, sensors galore, all glass roof, thicker cooled/heated seats, electric steering and braking system (for autopilot), the list is long and amazing.

 

[SwTslaGrl]

I'm in Europe and I think for the normal consumer it's whats available where you are. Opel, Renault, VW etc are within 15 minutes distance here, Tesla is a 5 hour round trip to the store/service center. This could change when we get closer to the Model 3 launch though.

 

[trils0n]

Seriously?

Model S - Options by Year - Tesla Motors Club Wiki

I have a "classic" Model S like the one that won COTY.
The difference between my car and a new Model S is staggering.

New smaller dual motors, battery pack technology, auto pilot hardware, sensors galore, all glass roof, thicker cooled/heated seats, electric steering and braking system (for autopilot), the list is long and amazing.

Yes, seriously. The Model S is a wonderful car. I have a classic as well, and have enjoyed it for nearly 4 years. I would take my classic Model S over any other new car on the market, except for a new Model S. It is that good. My Classic 2013 Model S > Any other (non-Tesla) 2017 new car. It truly was revolutionary and worthy of the COTY award. The new Model S are better in nearly every way, but fundamentally the same vehicle. The new Model S doesn't represent a fundamental shift in the market like it did in 2013 when it won COTY.

Tesla had a 200 mile car in 2008. That is 8 years ago. Nearly a decade. Nearly a decade it took the first major automaker to catch up. That is an accomplishment (sort of) and represents a change in the industry. Whether the Bolt goes on to be an important vehicle in the grand scheme of things remains to be seen (it could just be a reactionary move to try to deal with the future threat of the Model 3, rather than a larger strategic move), but it might have the potential to be something important

 

[voyager]

This GM EV looks more like it. Developed by GM's Chinese branch, it is supposed to stand for Buick's new design.

 

[bhzmark]

Add another award for the Bolt...Car & Driver put the Bolt on its 2017 10Best list.

It's funny to see people trash the Bolt and laud the Model 3, when no one outside of Tesla actually knows what the Model 3, if and when it is ever introduced, will be like, especially at the base price. Meanwhile, Chevy has put out a mass market EV that is getting rave reviews from every car media outlet that's had one to drive.

I already know that I won't be replacing my P85D with another Tesla, but at this point I'm going to seriously consider a Bolt when it comes time to replace my VW Rabbit (though in all likelihood, I am not going to continue with any BEV after the Tesla is gone).

I welcome and congratulate the team at Chevy that made the bolt and the people who will buy it.

BEVs are the future and the more people who figure it out sooner and in greater quantity, not just consumers but also other mfrs, the better off everyone will be.

Those who can't figure it out are prolly like those who insisted on wanting to keep buying and listrning to crackly albums instead of CDs. They will eventually die off.

 

[AustinPowers]

How much was the Ampera version of the Volt marked up in Germany? Ampera may not try to compete with the i3 or e-golf on price, because their allocation of vehicles may be very low. They could just list the car as available in their catalog for green credentials, without any intention of selling a significant volume of them.

Compared to the original Ampera, Opel is doing a lot of marketing for the Ampera-e. It sure looks like they want to sell that car. And going by reports in car magazines that are usually very close to the relevant sources, the Ampera-e should start at around 35K Euro, which would put it right next to i3 and e-Golf.

 

[Topher]

trust me

Well, there went any credibility I might have granted.

But you didn't answer my objection. Model 3, Bolt. Claiming that one car will be voluntarily optioned out at a higher price, and then not purchased because it is too expensive is crazy enough. Claiming that somehow that doesn't apply to the other car with the higher starting price, and which will be optioned by dealers who are incentivized to add as many options as possible, is surreal.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Eclectic]

I'm in Europe and I think for the normal consumer it's whats available where you are. Opel, Renault, VW etc are within 15 minutes distance here, Tesla is a 5 hour round trip to the store/service center. This could change when we get closer to the Model 3 launch though.

This is a critical point. I'm in the process of moving from California, where there are superchargers and service centers everywhere, to a state that has zero service centers and a handful of superchargers. There are Chevy dealers in every town and while they all may not have EV trained staff immediately, they will all be able to take in a Bolt and have it fixed as needed without inconvenience to the customer.

Just take a look at the problems Edmunds is having with their long term Model X. Nine days out of service recently and they had easy access to a service center. Imagine if the closest service center is in another state...very few mainstream consumers would accept that kind of inconvenience.

So you have hit upon the real flaw with the Model 3 when it comes to mass market adoption.

 

[techmaven]

From http://phys.org/news/2016-11-gm-mile-electric-chevrolet.html

IHS predicts that GM will sell just under 30,000 Bolts in the first year, which won't add much to the roughly 235,000 electrics now on U.S. roads.

Also, there is apparently a strange way that some dealerships are handling the pre-orders. You don't get to choose your options. Instead, the dealership has already ordered their allotment, and you get to choose amongst the allocation that arrives in order. Otherwise, you can put in a custom order and it will take a while longer. Seems a bit crazy.

Also, according to the WSJ: GM’s Chevy Bolt EV Not Widely Available Until Spring

Outside CA and OR, don't expect to see a Bolt soon.

General Motors Co.’s first long-range electric car won’t be made widely available for several months, with the auto maker planning to sell the Chevrolet Bolt in California and Oregon in coming weeks to meet its commitment to put it on sale in 2016.

Deliveries to other markets will be at a “slow flow” pace, she said.

 

[Topher]

they will all be able to take in a Bolt and have it fixed as needed without inconvenience to the customer.

Where did you get this impression?

Thank you kindly.

 

[RiverBrick]

they will all be able to take in a Bolt and have it fixed as needed without inconvenience to the customer.

Parts could be in short supply for a new vehicle. Nissan has tons of dealers too, but for the last four months my LEAF is just a bit more useful than a Twizy due to a passenger airbag sensor defect that can't be fixed due to a lack of parts.